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Post by Wß on Sept 19, 2017 12:57:34 GMT
Ocon is tweeting that he's official for 2018 with Force India. He's a good egg this kid. Looking forward to him over the next few years. Sainz and Him would be my team driver pairing for a young up and coming manufacturer entry.
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Post by London on Sept 25, 2017 17:55:45 GMT
Sainz & Ocon as a line-up sounds explosive. There will surely be some frictions in the air and on the track.Wehrlein still in the running at Sauber : I like those words from Vasseur. That seems to be positive for Wehrlein a bit.
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Post by Wß on Sept 25, 2017 18:59:31 GMT
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Post by dogued on Sept 25, 2017 23:43:27 GMT
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Post by London on Sept 26, 2017 0:02:45 GMT
I feel like he's gonna have to stick around for a fair while longer to get another 'emotional' goodbye. Felipe makes me laugh, he looks like those old guys who dont want to take their retirement.
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Post by Wß on Sept 26, 2017 0:05:16 GMT
The only movement we'll get is going to be in the midfield. The Kubica rumors, I'll believe them when they're announced. Just too much stuff going on to be able to discern what's noise, what's hopeful optimism and what's factual.
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Post by Hammer on Sept 26, 2017 4:33:17 GMT
I feel like he's gonna have to stick around for a fair while longer to get another 'emotional' goodbye. Felipe makes me laugh, he looks like those old guys who dont want to take their retirement. Felipe is the sort of sad sod who'll be telling his grandchildren "Yes, I was world champion but it was taken away from me by this guy called Timo Glock kids...you better believe it." And puffs on his pipe while tearing.
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Post by dogued on Sept 26, 2017 6:03:11 GMT
End of the day, while contracts may say otherwise, there are realistically only 3 seats left open: 1 @ Williams (Stroll will stay) 1 @ Torro Rosso (Gasly is almost certain given current RedBull and Honda ties) 1 @ Sauber (Leclerc is a shoo-in)
And we have Kyvat, Palmer, Erickson, Wehrlein, and Massa of the "current" crop to add to names like Sirotkin, Kubica, Giovinazzi, Rowland, and De Rista. Given the teams that are looking, will it come down to talent or $$?
Renault have Sirotkin & Rowland on their books, might do a loan to Torro Rosso as part of the Sainz/engine move, but highly unlikely. I think Sirotkin has missed his chance in F1, and Rowland is a possible Hulk replacement-in-waiting. Kyvat, Palmer, Erikson, and Giovinazzi can all bring money to the table for Sauber, in which case Giovinazzi might be likely due to Ferrari ties and not humiliating himself (aside from spinning out twice) earlier. Massa, Kubica, and De Rista offer experience, but the only one of those names that would "get the heart racing" would be Kubica for pure sentimental reasons. I think if he did a full season, even if he only put in 2017 Massa results, he wouldn't be mocked and it wouldn't hurt a team's image.
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Post by London on Sept 26, 2017 12:11:41 GMT
Lets be real for Renault :
- Sirotkin is definitely not good. Period. - Rowland is 26 years old and looks like a midfield driver so far. His season was correct but without more, walking in the shadow of Leclerc. Go to Formula E. Next. - Renault will be competitive year after year until 2020 as many people think. So why bring an inexperienced driver when you can attract top drivers because you know your car will have the potential to win races and fight for both titles ?
Lets be real for Sauber :
- Those drivers can put the money but Vasseur will not be fooled by the money. He wants the total of a racer's skill. The only man who can put the money and deliver is Gio, no doubt. But 2 inexperienced driver at Sauber is a risk and this is where Pascal makes his appearance on the scene. - If Pascal want to stay he will have to show it and be faster than Leclerc in the 6 last FP1 sessions I believe.
Confirmed for Pierre ‘HIT THE GAS’ Gasly : Toro Rosso confirms Gasly for next races.
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Post by dogued on Sept 27, 2017 0:28:28 GMT
Giovanzzi has FP1 sessions coming up at Haas, Leclerc has FP1 session at Sauber, Wehrlein and Erickson have the rest of the season. For me, it's lock in for Leclerc and the other 3 will be trying to show why they deserve the other seat. Giovinazzi did well early season, but those spins and crashes have to remain in the back of the mind when evaluating. Wehrlein has done a reasonable job, but has he overcome the rumored personality issues that hindered him last year and shifted the focus back to the talent that Mercedes believe is there? I can't see Erickson staying unless his backers/the owners really believe he can do more.
It's hard to use other series as a benchmark for F1 drivers without actually giving them a go. Looking at ex-F1 drivers, do you really rate Buemi, Piquet Jr, Sato, Dixon, Chilton, and the rest as talented as they appear in Formula E / Indy? Have they gotten better, was it the cars they were in, are the other series that easy, or is it just a case of they came to F1 at a time where the limited seats & growing costs meant you either need Verstappen-style speed or Stroll level cash?
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Post by Wß on Sept 27, 2017 12:09:41 GMT
You have to wonder sometimes, under today's circumstances. Which drivers to come into the sport over the last 10 or 15 years would not have made it due to the pressure to immediately perform.
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Post by Hammer on Sept 27, 2017 12:33:16 GMT
I was actually a Kvyat fan when he was at Redbull....but man has he made a mess of it since then. Can't fault the Redbull management for doing what they did, I would've done the same.
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Post by dogued on Sept 27, 2017 13:03:53 GMT
You have to wonder sometimes, under today's circumstances. Which drivers to come into the sport over the last 10 or 15 years would not have made it due to the pressure to immediately perform. Would Rubens Barrichello have stayed in F1 today? 8 seasons (124 races) before his first win, with him only finishing 58 of those first 124 races. Mark Webber, 8 seasons (130 races) before his first win, with only 2 podiums prior to that 8th season. Nico Rosberg even... 7 seasons (111 races) before his first win. 2 podiums in his first 4 season which were Aus 2008 (only 7 cars finished) and Singapore 2008 (got lucky behind Alonso after crashgate). Martin Brundle got TWELEVE seasons in F1 despite taking 8 of them to score his first podium, never winning a race in the same car his young team mate (some Schumacher guy) won in, and only having 4 podiums over the last 4 seasons Hell, I'm still amazed Nico Hulkenberg still has a seat after 7 seasons without making a podium trip in cars that team mates have put on the podium 3 times. Just a few of the more well known names that would have been lucky to have made the 2018 grid if they had started in 2015.
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Post by dogued on Sept 27, 2017 13:20:15 GMT
I was actually a Kvyat fan when he was at Redbull....but man has he made a mess of it since then. Can't fault the Redbull management for doing what they did, I would've done the same. GPupdate did an article on the Kvyat timeline, and I must say it certainly made me adjust my views of him slightly. I think you would say "cursed by good luck". Da Costa hit a rough patch as Kvyat hit a good one, which got him the nod to enter STR straight from GP3. Was the only STR driver on the books when Vettel left (JEV having just been marched), so got the nod to move up to RBR. He achieved some decent enough results and outscored Ricciardo thanks to the Aussie having endless car troubles. But for all of that, he was a young driver rushed through, who couldn't cope with the pressure his fast rise came with. I don't think he had the external support drivers like Verstappen and Sainz have had to help them with their rapid movement. Now, I think he's a broken shell of what he could have been had he been arriving in 2015 to a Torro Rosso outfit that would have stability for 3 years.
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Post by London on Sept 27, 2017 15:41:58 GMT
Giovanzzi has FP1 sessions coming up at Haas, Leclerc has FP1 session at Sauber, Wehrlein and Erickson have the rest of the season. For me, it's lock in for Leclerc and the other 3 will be trying to show why they deserve the other seat. Giovinazzi did well early season, but those spins and crashes have to remain in the back of the mind when evaluating. Wehrlein has done a reasonable job, but has he overcome the rumored personality issues that hindered him last year and shifted the focus back to the talent that Mercedes believe is there? I can't see Erickson staying unless his backers/the owners really believe he can do more. To me Ericsson is off the boat, It would damage Vasseur credibility if they kept him in my opinion. Im assuming Its about Gio and Wehrlein now.
It's hard to use other series as a benchmark for F1 drivers without actually giving them a go. Looking at ex-F1 drivers, do you really rate Buemi, Piquet Jr, Sato, Dixon, Chilton, and the rest as talented as they appear in Formula E / Indy? Have they gotten better, was it the cars they were in, are the other series that easy, or is it just a case of they came to F1 at a time where the limited seats & growing costs meant you either need Verstappen-style speed or Stroll level cash? I am not sure what you are trying to tell to me.
Dixon had tests in Formula 1. Sure in his first test he wasn't far off RSC, but RSC wasn't a fantastic driver by F1 terms. He had several tests but didn't get a shot. No way does someone who has the talent to match Fernando Alonso or Lewis Hamilton be slower than Ralf AND not get a chance after tests.
Piquet wasnt good come on you know that. Just like Senna’s son.
I used to like Sato a lot back in the day : natural talent but wrong application. Got 'outqualified' by 'Button' a several time.
I don’t even remember Buemi being in F1. One thing I remember is when his wheels come off in the japanese 2001 grand prix I believe.
If I should choose one of your list suggestion I will mainly say the other series are easy mainly because the concurrence is not at the same level and maybe Formula One crazy technology is not for every driver.
And I am pretty sure those drivers didnt perform well in junior category but back in the day that wasnt really a key thing. Nowadays it looks like it is more and more.You have to wonder sometimes, under today's circumstances. Which drivers to come into the sport over the last 10 or 15 years would not have made it due to the pressure to immediately perform. Would Rubens Barrichello have stayed in F1 today? 8 seasons (124 races) before his first win, with him only finishing 58 of those first 124 races. Mark Webber, 8 seasons (130 races) before his first win, with only 2 podiums prior to that 8th season. Nico Rosberg even... 7 seasons (111 races) before his first win. 2 podiums in his first 4 season which were Aus 2008 (only 7 cars finished) and Singapore 2008 (got lucky behind Alonso after crashgate). Martin Brundle got TWELEVE seasons in F1 despite taking 8 of them to score his first podium, never winning a race in the same car his young team mate (some Schumacher guy) won in, and only having 4 podiums over the last 4 seasons Hell, I'm still amazed Nico Hulkenberg still has a seat after 7 seasons without making a podium trip in cars that team mates have put on the podium 3 times. Just a few of the more well known names that would have been lucky to have made the 2018 grid if they had started in 2015. You need to take in consideration that back in those days F1 was lacking real young talents behind the scene to put pressure on those second tier drivers. They prolly were in the group of the most talented driver of the motorsport world at that time.
And why always go for the stats. Stats don't always tell the real story. There is too many variable in sport that we dont even know or control. Yes Hulkenberg is overrated but is that really means he doesn't deserve a seat in F1 ? Not really, he just makes mistakes when it matters the most and he lacks luck. Nearly all the times Perez podiumed instead of him in FI it could just have easily been him, he usually got the bad strategy and dont forget Belgium 2016 where he was in P2 with quite a gap until the safety car came out.
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Post by London on Sept 27, 2017 16:07:12 GMT
Hulkenberg is a Rosberg kind of driver. Good qualifier, average racecraft.
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Post by Wß on Sept 27, 2017 16:54:59 GMT
Hulkenberg is a Rosberg kind of driver. Good qualifier, average racecraft. I would have been less inclined to agree with you, but the more I've seen of him, the more I'm come to the same conclusion. He's not a "hunter". Racecraft doesn't quite fit the definition for me. Racecraft isn't getting pole and keeping the lead from the front etc. What I think Hulkenberg lacks is that racer mentality, hunting for the guy ahead and scheming of one way or another to get by, if there is a way to get by. Ricciardo has it, Verstappen clearly has it. Even Massa had it, certainly still there to a degree. Guys that will work around a problem. Kimi, had it, he's lost it. Perez has it, although I don't think he's got the "racecraft". So there's a difference between that and having that hunter/killer instinct is what I'm trying to say. Rosberg certainly didn't have it, don't think Bottas does either.
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Post by London on Sept 27, 2017 21:06:54 GMT
Yeah I think you nailed it. This is exactly the point with Hulkenberg. Less than one week I was saying to myself Hulkenberg doesn’t look like a proper racing driver of F1 but more like an endurance driver (actually I am afraid Sainz destroys Hulkenberg next year).
I will make the difference now.
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Post by dogued on Sept 28, 2017 2:34:04 GMT
I am not sure what you are trying to tell to me. Was more a generic statement, but sort of related to the comment about Rowland. There are many examples of drivers that were beaten in junior or other categories that have done above average or better in F1. Vettel was beaten by 3 "future" F1 drivers in his first season of F3 Euro and was beaten the following year by De Rista in the same car in his second year, yet shone in F1 as he arrived at the right time in the right car. By Contrast, one of the rookies to beat him in that 2005 F3 Euro season was Lucas Di Grassi who then finished 2nd, 3rd, 3rd in GP2 before failing in his one season of F1 behind the wheel of a Virgin. He's since gone on to have 3 podium finishes at Le Mans and just took out the Formula E title. If he had been backed by Stroll level cash and started at Sauber, would his F1 story have been better? I think FOM/FIA are now finally getting things sorted by merging series and setting pathways from F4 to F1 so that drivers can have clearer ways to showcase talent against other drivers. And why always go for the stats. Stats don't always tell the real story. There is too many variable in sport that we dont even know or control. Yes Hulkenberg is overrated but is that really means he doesn't deserve a seat in F1 ? Not really, he just makes mistakes when it matters the most and he lacks luck. Nearly all the times Perez podiumed instead of him in FI it could just have easily been him, he usually got the bad strategy and dont forget Belgium 2016 where he was in P2 with quite a gap until the safety car came out. Because in this case, stats are relevant. The comment was a reply to this: Which drivers to come into the sport over the last 10 or 15 years would not have made it due to the pressure to immediately perform. With the results those drivers have had, over a sustained period from the start of their F1 careers, they wouldn't have survived if they had started in 2014. You mention "variables" that counter actual results, but that's not what current F1 cares about with new drivers. Palmer has had 2 seasons with "variables" like being tagged at starts and car issues that meant he's lacked setup time and qualifying runs (in contrast, both McLarens have done more FP and Q laps than Palmer in 2016 and 2017.) He'll be gone. Kvyat is a prime example of outside variables no longer being relevant. He has had 2 bad seasons that were heavily influenced by external factors, following 2 good ones, and if Sainz hadn't been pinched by Renault then he would be gone (and might still be.) Nasr beat Ericsson in all but 3 of the races they both finished in 2015, went 50/50 in 2016, and was gone this year because Mercedes offered a deal to get Wehlein into Sauber and Ericsson had better backers. Had any of those 3 drivers started in 2010, they may well have Hulkenberg may have had other factors influence his lack of podiums when compared to team mates, but he also hasn't done anything to warrant the status he appears to have in F1.
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Post by London on Sept 29, 2017 15:34:26 GMT
Yeah junior series don't always equate to F1 talent. However Vettel was very highly rated pre F1.
A driver's 'talent' as a junior typically depends on the rate of progression, not just how many championships they win. For instance a driver who gets 3rd in a championship in their first year may be seen as far more impressive than one who wins their third season but didn't do much prior to that. Its incredibly difficult to change from car to car every single year having to compete against guys who have spent 2-3 years already in that championship and beat them from the word go. Generally , only the very best can do it.
I also feel Vettel's junior career is misunderstood. He spent an unneccesary extra season in formula BMW and absolutely dominated. Moved up to Formula 3 where he finished 5th same place as Hamilton & Rosberg did in their first seasons. Hamilton demolished F3 and GP2 consecutively, consolidating his status with McLaren and pulling him away from BMW's grasps. Who also spent an unnecessary extra season in a tier because one of his season was perceived as too weak. 2006 with Di Resta at the same level of experienced was a bad season for Vettel. Then he became BMW's 3rd driver when Villeneuve was released spending most of the final third of the season runing in FP1. He was so favored by Mario Thissen that BMW were tempted to drop Heidfeld in favor of Vettel. However Heidfeld's performance and Scott Speed's lack led to Toro Rosso promoting Vettel out of Formula V8 before completing a season. The context to him being promoted early, employed as a young 3rd driver for 2 different teams (ala Ocon back in his Renault days/Mercedes), and preforming on par with Hamilton & Rosberg's first F3 season contradicts the narrative that his junior career was kinda weak. _
'If he had been backed by Stroll level cash and started at Sauber, would his F1 story have been better?' Maybe better but how much ? It's one thing to be a pay driver, but it's another to be successful. _
I can agree with you on Hulk from your point of view after all.
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