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Post by Wß on Jul 17, 2017 14:02:50 GMT
Bottas may have cemented a longer term contract with Mercedes yesterday
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Post by dogued on Jul 17, 2017 14:11:12 GMT
Ferrari have an issue, well several, but firstly it's Vettel. Vettel isn't going to sit there and take 2nd place after 2nd place in the WDC quietly like Alonso did. For all the talk about Hamilton being "gifted" success early on through McLaren, Vettel was handed 3 of his titles on an Adrian Newey shaped platter. The stats show that Vettel, while one of the slowest to 10 wins, set a pace that rivaled Schumacher in the race to 40 wins. I firmly believe that this has created the spoiled brat tag (one that Lewis seems to be branded with often) for Vettel. It has also left him thirsty for wins right here and right now. We saw the change in him when RBR went off the boil. He's been ok at Ferrari until this year because they were NOT a real threat. Now he has tasted the lead of the WDC again, his inner demons are coming back out when it all falls apart. Vettel does not know how to chase, and it will blow up in Ferrari's face sooner rather than later.
The second issue at Ferrari is one that is being slowly rectified. Post 2008, they had the "cull" of all non-Italian staff. It was supposed to be the great success story for the company and the nation. It failed. Slowly they began to rectify this, but it takes time for a full design team to gel together properly. Installing Rory as a Mentor to Rosta was a good move, and we're seeing the benefits in this year's chassis. If they can continue to make smart moves off the track, it will reap rewards, probably with a WDC in 2018 or 2019 (provided everything else falls into place, like Lewis moving there in 2019!)
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Post by Wß on Jul 17, 2017 14:19:22 GMT
Could agree with you more. But here's the wrinkle, Today's Ferrari I don't think has the capacity to win a championship against both the juggernaut that is Mercedes and a Red Bull with a competitive Renault PU, and Renault will show up with a competitive PU next year, mark my words.
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Post by dogued on Jul 17, 2017 14:34:10 GMT
See I just don't think the 2017 Red Bull is better than the 2016 design. I think they tried to get clever and went horribly wrong; in short, they did a "Ferrari". Now, they still have the brains trust behind the scenes to fix it, and we're slowly seeing the car back where it was last year, but given the loss of support staff over the last few years, and Adrian not being around as much, I don't think they'll suddenly be the best chassis on the grid in 2018 or even 19. Ferrari got Byrne in at the end of 2014, and the mentoring program has been there to help with the design evolution (compared with the RBR approach of just getting Newey to fix things) and I can certainly see it paying off. The team has assembled and grown together. The 2017 chassis is an improvement over 16, which was an improvement over 15 etc. The issue is they fired the engine guy, which may or may not come back to bite them. If it proves a good move, then they will be a real solid threat at every race. McLaren have probably the most to gain if, and I say this every time, Honda can just please stop stuffing it all up. That chassis looks great, especially in the hands of Alonso. Mark my words, if they put 100% of every division along with any assistance offered behind the 2018 engine, they will be a threat. Which brings it all back to Vettel. If Alonso in a McLaren, Hamilton and Bottas in Mercedes, and Verstappen in a RBR are all able of winning a race next year, and he starts falling behind.... it won't be pretty.
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Post by Hammer on Jul 17, 2017 14:41:07 GMT
I don't see Fonzi lasting past 2017 in McLaren/F1.
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Post by Wß on Jul 17, 2017 14:46:54 GMT
I don't see Fonzi lasting past 2017 in McLaren/F1. Agreed, he's done there's no way that Honda can go back once again next year with another attempt. Given the situation they're going to be perpetually behind. The problem seems to be fundamental. If they had good fundamentals they'd now be able to refine and grow and optimize. It seems as if they can't find a good foundation upon from which to build from. It's baffling how they've gotten it wrong and keep getting it wrong. Alonso knows he's got to move but there's no place to move to. Renault pairing Hulkenberg? Vettel won't allow him back into Ferrari, Mercedes seems to be doing well with Bottas and Bottas is only going to get better the more comfortable he gets with winning and racing from the front. Red Bull has as solid a driver pairing as anyone can get... so not many options for Alonso.
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Post by racechick on Jul 17, 2017 14:57:00 GMT
I don't see Fonzi lasting past 2017 in McLaren/F1. Agreed, he's done there's no way that Honda can go back once again next year with another attempt. Given the situation they're going to be perpetually behind. The problem seems to be fundamental. If they had good fundamentals they'd now be able to refine and grow and optimize. It seems as if they can't find a good foundation upon from which to build from. It's baffling how they've gotten it wrong and keep getting it wrong. Alonso knows he's got to move but there's no place to move to. Renault pairing Hulkenberg? Vettel won't allow him back into Ferrari, Mercedes seems to be doing well with Bottas and Bottas is only going to get better the more comfortable he gets with winning and racing from the front. Red Bull has as solid a driver pairing as anyone can get... so not many options for Alonso. Williams? With Stroll. Assuming Massa only came back for one year? They have Merc engines and they have Paddy Lowe. They could be good. Depends how greedy he is with salary. If he's not in Red Bull, Merc or Ferrari he can't get a huge salary.
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Post by dogued on Jul 17, 2017 14:59:49 GMT
I still think he's staying. But I think there are HUGE conditions on it. Consistent top 8 from Singapore onward, no retirements (from failures) after Italy, and a few others. Personally, I would like to see another condition; if he doesn't podium by baku 2018 (End of April), he will leave F1 and from May 27 (Indy 500) onward will be the lead driver for McLaren Honda Indy.
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Post by Hammer on Jul 17, 2017 15:19:55 GMT
When will Williams ever win Championships.....no way. And dogued I really don't see him saying F**K YOU to McLaren Honda.....and moving to McLaren Honda Indy. He's got way too big of an ego to do that, most likely he will join a completely different series, maybe DTM or something and get his ass kicked over there.
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Post by Wß on Jul 17, 2017 15:31:32 GMT
^^ Jesus Hammer cut the guy some slack! He's suffering enough as it is!
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Post by Hammer on Jul 17, 2017 15:41:14 GMT
After ruining what would've been a perfect Brazilian 2003 GP with DC winning After being a b*tch in 2007 in McLaren and making them lose both WCC and WDC due to his drama After patting his tyres in glee at Nurburgring 2005 after Kimi's suspension broke on the last lap After acting like he's Mr Innocent by winning the Singaporean GP after his teammate was forced to crash After all his "my car sucks, but we qualified 5th because of me"
Nah, he's not suffered enough.
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Post by Wß on Jul 17, 2017 15:45:10 GMT
He's made his own bed, he's sleeping in it. Just enjoy that.
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Post by dogued on Jul 18, 2017 3:21:30 GMT
See, Williams COULD win the WDC if they find the next aero guru. Likewise Force India. We've seen with Red Bull what an excellent design team can achieve over a works team, I mean would anyone tip Renault over RBR to be the next Renault powered championship team? However, as it stands there are only going to be 4 candidates (provided Honda keep stepping up); Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull, and McLaren. Ferrari have said they don't see Alonso back there, Mercedes don't need him, and Red Bull prefer home grown talent. Sauber & Haas are a worse option than staying at McLaren and Torro Rosso use in house rookies. That leaves Williams, Renault, and Force India as alternatives in F1. The only one of those who can approach the kind of wage Alonso would want (he's on $40m a year right now and can't see that dropping much under $30m) would be Williams, and their shareholders would ask serious questions at a board level and possibly try to veto the move if that option was taken.... especially given the alternatives out there.
McLaren Indy (under Andretti for the first season) is NOT a stupid option. Honda already pay his wages, he has already shown he can drive on ovals and would certainly be a force on street circuits, and it's a fresh challenge and when he wins (if good old Nigel can do it, so can Alonso) he can boost his ego with the "Yes, I am a World Champion in 2 motorsports."
At some point he will have to admit that the time for F1 glory is pretty much gone.
*EDIT* Forgot to point out the Indy are going with universal aero kits for 2018. The only difference between teams will be driver and engine, and we know Honda has a GREAT indy engine. It's really shaping to be the best option for Alonso if he wants to prove that he is amazing and it's been the car letting him down for so many years.
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Post by RyRy on Jul 25, 2017 12:37:34 GMT
I mean would anyone tip Renault over RBR to be the next Renault powered championship team? I would, they've made significant gains throughout the year and aren't really that far away from Red Bull and that is with them admitting before pre-season testing that their aim for this year and possibly 2018/2019 is to work on getting data and that 2017 is somewhat written off as they will be focusing on the future.
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Post by Hammer on Jul 25, 2017 14:26:04 GMT
I see the Fonz making a shock move to Mercedes in Formula E in 2019.
If it happens, I'm gonna laugh so hard.
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