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Post by Wß on Aug 29, 2017 1:16:27 GMT
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Post by Wß on Aug 29, 2017 17:16:34 GMT
Scandalous weekend already and we're still only on Tuesday. Mercedes will be allowed to run its latest Formula 1 engine, introduced at the Belgian Grand Prix, at a higher level of oil burn for the remainder of the season.There's a lot of butt hurt already claiming that this give an advantage to Mercedes during qualifying.... think about that, the limit is set for per 100 kilometer distance, but that's how the mind of the rose colored glasses wearing tin foil hat brigade rolls. Over the course of a 300 kilometer race they can use 3.6 liters versus 2.7 that is the restriction from Monza onwards. I guess Ferrari could have done the same in Spa but it would have meant a grid penalty for Sebastian, and they were just not willing to give up the race right then and there. Sorry, for not being able to have your cake and eat it too.
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Post by racechick on Aug 30, 2017 7:38:19 GMT
Ace move by Mercedes! I wonder why Ferrari didn't do likewise, since rumour has it they were the biggest gainers from the oil burn?
Don't expect the 'rose tinted' to come anywhere near understanding the oil burn situation. They probably thought Spa, the biggest nail biter of the season, a boring race. No interest in the racing, only the result. And if a certain driver happens to win by being superb, flawless, fast , quick thinking. Just stick on a darker tinted pair of classes.
( note I said 'rose- tinted' NOT all Ferrari fans. Most true Tiffosi understand the sport)
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Post by Hammer on Aug 30, 2017 9:19:19 GMT
So Merc did 3 engines for 12 races and now the 4th will be used for 9 races (inc Spa)? If I understand correctly.
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Post by Frontrunner on Aug 30, 2017 10:47:17 GMT
So Merc did 3 engines for 12 races and now the 4th will be used for 9 races (inc Spa)? If I understand correctly. They can always go back to engine (ICE) 1, 2, 3 whenever they want during the season, and actually they can change back engines or other older components during the weekend if they want. For Example use older parts for free practice then saving your lest worn parts for Quali and Race. Merc just being smart and just sticking in a brand new donkey for the most demanding race for PU's for the season, then perhaps they'll go back to a worn donkey for somewhere a bit less demanding like Singapore.
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Post by Wß on Aug 30, 2017 12:35:39 GMT
It goes back a few races, and the "clarifications" the FiA has been making all throughout the season. From the begining when Ferrari asked about the multiple specifications of oil to where we are today. It's clear that they've both been burning more oil that was allowed. There is however a big difference as to how they were burning that oil. When they made the big stink about the second tank, and had Ferrari remove it. Well, the second tank was clearly for something else.
Oil naturally burns in an engine, it's consumed as part of the process, as the natural lubricant of the pistons etc, some oil will get past the piston rings and burn along with the fuel. On a street car this is very small and just results in the consumption, where every few hundred miles, you have to "top it off a bit". Mercedes has obviously been burning more than just this bit, and they're getting extra oomph from it. When the 2nd tank was removed by Ferrari, the FiA was also clarifying the additives in the oil. Clearly stating that no additives for the sake of increasing the combustibility of the oil would be allowed. After all, the oil is supposed to be a lubricant, not a combustible so this was a way to ensure the oil could not be exploited for that end. The other way to get oil to burn inside the piston chamber is to inject it mixed in to the fuel. That was the likely reason for the existence of the second tank and additional plumbing. Remember they made sure to specify the plumbing needed to be removed as well.
Immediately after that, Ferrari lost their edge in qualifying. Canada was the peak where they actually were gaining time in the straights compared to Mercedes. After the tank was removed, they went backwards. Mercedes since they weren't breaking the rules didn't see the effect. Doesn't mean they're still not burning oil, but the oil is burned throughout the race as part of a boost to the fuel.
That's what the FiA are doing now, restricting the actual amount of oil that can be burned through the normal process and capping it. From the 1.2 liters per 100 kilometers now, to just .9 liters per 100 kilometers. Since the Mercedes ICE is designed to work under the 1.2 liter rule, they decided to bring it in early.
This prevents Mercedes from introducing any future ICE upgrade without taking a grid penalty. They're both at 4 ICE each, so it's actually even. Whomever brings that 5th unit, will see the penalty first.
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Post by Frontrunner on Aug 30, 2017 13:05:03 GMT
Has Mercedes ever had to take a grid penalty for using a extra engine/PU component (not gearboxes) in the last couple years? I actually can't think of one. Hamilton did have a bad run one season with reliability but not sure if he had use a extra ICE, MGUK, Turbo or whatever.
Be interesting to compare Mclaren-Honda's grid penalties for PU component to Mercedes. Mclaren-Honda would easily surpass 200 grid spot penalties (perhaps even 300) for PU components over the years, insane.
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Post by racechick on Aug 30, 2017 14:25:34 GMT
Lewis took two new lots of everything didn't he? At Spa last year. Has to start from the back but stocked up on engine bits.......one of which then failed in Malaysia and lost him the championship.
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Post by Wß on Aug 30, 2017 15:27:56 GMT
As a matter of fact they changed that loophole this year. Where they can no longer introduce multiple PUs in one weekend and lump all of the penalties there. So the only PU that can be used during the race is the latest PU. McLaren did that in spades in 2015 as well.
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Post by racechick on Aug 30, 2017 20:09:50 GMT
Yes that's right they did. Lewis just snuck in there...much good it did him. Good ploy though.
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Post by dogued on Aug 31, 2017 5:29:05 GMT
Units 1 2 3 4 can be used at any time in any order. The trick is to use high mileage units on tracks like Singapore and Monaco, and fresher units on power tracks like Monza. There is no penalty for changing anything around during FP1 & FP2. I *THINK* that it's the moment FP3 ends that locks whatever is in the car for qualifying and race. Any changes after that get a penalty, even if it's to a component that's still in the original 4. A quick run down for you, I may have missed something. Actual mileage per unit will change depending on how many laps the driver did over the weekend, how many sessions it was used for, how many races since. For example, Vettel may have used Turbo #1 for race 1/2/6, Turbo #2 for race 3/7/8, Turbo #3 for race 4/9/10, Turbo #4 for race 5/11/12, with Turbo 1 also doing FP1&2 at the first 6 events and Turbo #2 doing FP1&2 for the next 6 events. Hamilton ICE | MGU-K | MGU-H | TC | ES | CE | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Spain
| Spain
| Spain
| Spain
| Monaco | Monaco | Britain | Britain
| Britain
| Britain
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| Belgium
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| Belgium
| Belgium
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Bottas ICE | MGU-K | MGU-H | TC | ES | CE | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Spain
| Spain
| Spain
| Spain
| Monaco | China | Britain
| Britain
| Britain
| Britain
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| Belgium
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| Belgium
| Belgium
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Vettel ICE | MGU-K | MGU-H | TC | ES | CE | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Spain | Spain
| Bahrain | Bahrain | Bahrain | Bahrain | Britain
| Hungary | Spain | Russia | Hungary
| Britain
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| Spain |
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Raikkonen ICE | MGU-K | MGU-H | TC | ES | CE | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Bahrain | Spain
| Bahrain | Bahrain | Australia | Australia | Britain
| Hungary
| Britain
| Russia | Hungary
| Hungary
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| Britain
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Ricciardo ICE | MGU-K | MGU-H | TC | ES | CE | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Russia | Spain | Russia | Russia | Canada | China | Austria | Britain
| Azerbaijan
| Austria |
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| Britain
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| Austria | Britain
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| Britain
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Verstappen ICE | MGU-K | MGU-H | TC | ES | CE | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Russia | Monaco | Russia | Russia | Azerbaijan
| ? | Austria |
| Azerbaijan
| Austria |
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| Belgium |
| Austria |
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Post by Wß on Aug 31, 2017 20:46:26 GMT
I guess it's settled then. It's not bullshit because he believes it. I mean what the fuck else could explain the guy that thought nothing of ramming his car into a competitor's car claiming he'd done nothing wrong? BTW, putting things into perspective, he got the same penalty for that, as Kimi received last weekend for not lifting under a double yellow. I agree, Seb belives there's been no team orders. He also believed Bottas jumped the start. He's simply being consistent.
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Post by Wß on Aug 31, 2017 21:04:14 GMT
^^ dogued that's a hell of a post man!
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Post by racechick on Sept 1, 2017 8:32:04 GMT
I guess it's settled then. It's not bullshit because he believes it. I mean what the fuck else could explain the guy that thought nothing of ramming his car into a competitor's car claiming he'd done nothing wrong? BTW, putting things into perspective, he got the same penalty for that, as Kimi received last weekend for not lifting under a double yellow. I agree, Seb belives there's been no team orders. He also believed Bottas jumped the start. He's simply being consistent. What is this guy on? Ok it's great to be super confident and to completely believe you are the best out there. But he actually believes in his own bullshit about everything. Is he trying to suggest here that he hasn't requested and received number 1 status with all the trimmings? Renember when he took Webber out and started doing the cuckoo sign at him? Couldn't believe that.
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Post by dogued on Sept 1, 2017 9:03:31 GMT
*sigh* I do tips and then THIS happens... Ricciardo ICE | MGU-K | MGU-H | TC | ES | CE | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Russia | Spain | Russia | Russia | Canada | China | Austria | Britain
| Azerbaijan
| Austria |
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| Britain
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| Austria | Britain
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| Italy |
| Britain
| Italy
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| Italy
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Verstappen ICE | MGU-K | MGU-H | TC | ES | CE | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Australia | Russia | Monaco | Russia | Russia | Azerbaijan
| ? | Austria |
| Azerbaijan
| Austria |
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| Belgium |
| Austria | Italy
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| Italy |
| Italy |
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Alonso - 35 place drop for new parts Ricciardo - 20 place drop for new parts Verstappen - 15 place drop for new parts Sainz - 10 place grid drop for new parts But then to cheer me up.... Merc have a 1s gap over Ferrari.
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Post by racechick on Sept 1, 2017 9:09:08 GMT
Lol, just heard that on tele. Was coming to post it. You beat me. Damn! Interforum screwed. Scope for some unusual ones in top ten.
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Post by dogued on Sept 1, 2017 9:19:19 GMT
Ahhhh Sky F1.... the only place you can tune in to watch FP1 and get a lesson on the financial benefits of having a KFC franchise
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Post by dogued on Sept 2, 2017 6:48:58 GMT
Ok, this is beginning to get complicated! And there's still the chance of more people with penalties following FP3 and Qualifying!!!
But right now, the following is the order and number of places to be dropped:
1. Daniel Ricciardo will drop 20 places. 2. Carlos Sainz will drop 10 places. 3. Fernando Alonso will drop 35 places. 4. Max Verstappen will drop 15 places 5. Daniel Ricciardo will drop 5 places (new gearbox before 6 races)
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Post by racechick on Sept 2, 2017 8:17:45 GMT
Can I just go back to the oil burn issue for a sec. I just want to check I've understood this situation. There seem a few disgruntled folk with the usual cries of 'Not Fair' . So I'm going to put this in simple terms as I understand it. Please correct any points I'm wrong on.
- In July the FIA issued a directive TO ALL TEAMS NOT JUST TO MERCEDES, that new engines introduced prior to Monza could oil burn at 1.2
- Confusion arose when a subsequebpnt ruling said customer teams engines must be the same spec as the works outfit
- Mercedes, with the July directive in mind, introduced a new engine before Monza, Ferrari didn't ( as it would have incurred a penalty as happened to Hamilton last year)
- the FIA Have clarified that Mercedes can use this engine at 1.2 as directed in July. Presumably customers do have the same spec engine but chose not to activate it in Spa thus losing the opportunity to run it at 1.2
- Ferrari thought fighting for a good result at Spa more valuable to them than a subsequent engine running at 1.2. That was their choice.
If I've got that right, I'm really struggling to see why there's the squealing in some quarters......... though I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
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Post by dogued on Sept 2, 2017 8:45:47 GMT
That's about it in a nutshell. But we are talking about oil CONSUMPTION not oil BURN. Use of oil as fuel was banned in 2013, so we are talking about how much oil is used cooling and lubricating engines during a race. Given that the standard race distance is 305km, the new rule is that you can only consume 2.7ltr over a race rather than 3.6ltr. Now, if you have an engine that was VERY inefficient and required an extra oil tank, which you had to remove earlier in the year, then this loss of 900ml might seem unfair as it's a 2nd kick in the same spot. But if that's the case, they could have taken the 4th ICE unit at Spa for FP1, put the 3rd unit back in for FP2 onwards, and no penalty needed.
The thing is, Ferrari can now use a new spec ICE that will conceivably produce more power and be within the 0.9L/100km limit without a penalty, while Mercedes are stuck with this spec ICE till the end of the year unless they want a penalty.
*EDIT TO ADD* The issue seems to be people's understanding and a few comments from Ferrari because there was apparently a "gentleman's agreement" with Merc that the 4th ICE would comply with the 0.9L/100Km rule.
But FIA said any unit INTRODUCED at or before Spa would adhere to the 1.2L/100Km rule, and Mercedes are following that. Next year teams have to meet 0.6L/100km rules as well as a reduction in power unit elements of only 3 for the season.
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