|
Post by Liam Catterson on Jul 30, 2017 18:05:11 GMT
Whatever Toto is on, I want it
|
|
|
Post by RyRy on Jul 30, 2017 22:07:34 GMT
To me it looked like Toto was kind of saying "I told you so" in regards to an argument that he may of had with Niki.
It was as if Niki had said something about Hamilton won't let Bottas back through but Toto believed that Hamilton would let him back through and so he was
|
|
|
Post by Hammer on Jul 31, 2017 5:23:52 GMT
To me it looked like Toto was kind of saying "I told you so" in regards to an argument that he may of had with Niki. It was as if Niki had said something about Hamilton won't let Bottas back through but Toto believed that Hamilton would let him back through and so he was This makes sense, yes...but if this is the case it's even more absurd. They just got schooled by Ferrari, very bad result for the Championships and he's getting all hyped up over a swap back? Nothing like how a cut throat team boss of a top team should be acting. His priorities seem very odd (if indeed your scenario is true). I would've expected a similar reaction to Anthony Ham at most. It was a failure of a weekend for the team.
|
|
|
Post by RyRy on Jul 31, 2017 6:45:28 GMT
I disagree about it being a failure...
- Sure it's a failure because they went wrong setup wise. - Sure it's a failure having the radio's go wrong. (Probably the biggest cause for losing the race as Hamilton would have done what Verstappen did) - The lack of radio's meant that it took too long for Hamilton to be let through (if the radio was working this wouldn't have been required.) BUT Hamilton did the right thing letting Bottas through, they have the overall fastest car so morals and ones word are better than those few points. It's a team sport, this teamwork could help out later in the year when someone needs to be left through or with data sharing, advice, blocking... Etc
I do think in a small way though that Bottas didn't really deserve them because he couldn't stay close to Hamilton. If the gap had got to 10 seconds i would have said that this was the wrong decision.
|
|
|
Post by racechick on Jul 31, 2017 6:53:55 GMT
Whilst I agree with that Hammer in some respects, Mercedes weren't ruthless and may come to rue the lost polints, I'm still glad that Lewis was true to his word. They are fighting Vettel for the drivers and Lewis is their best hope to beat him. Ferrari will put everything behind Vettel, Mercedes will play fair. They could easily have told Bottas he was too far back to risk the swap. Could have said he had to be within DRS to safely execute, and a nice little contract extension for his understanding. But Lewis slowed and let him through and much as I desperately want Lewis to win the championship, I'm glad he did that. He is not a 'win at all costs foul or fair' player like some. Can you imagine Ferrari asking Vettel to switch back? Or Vettel obeying such an order? And yet, would you believe this slant, it's out there........... 'Mercedes are hypocrites for placing team orders on Bottas, it was so unfair.' 'Kimi did a great job of protecting Vettel'. Has the word hypocrisy suddenly acquired a new meaning?
|
|
|
Post by RyRy on Jul 31, 2017 9:28:09 GMT
Whilst I agree with that Hammer in some respects, Mercedes weren't ruthless and may come to rue the lost polints, I'm still glad that Lewis was true to his word. They are fighting Vettel for the drivers and Lewis is their best hope to beat him. Ferrari will put everything behind Vettel, Mercedes will play fair. They could easily have told Bottas he was too far back to risk the swap. Could have said he had to be within DRS to safely execute, and a nice little contract extension for his understanding. But Lewis slowed and let him through and much as I desperately want Lewis to win the championship, I'm glad he did that. He is not a 'win at all costs foul or fair' player like some. Can you imagine Ferrari asking Vettel to switch back? Or Vettel obeying such an order? And yet, would you believe this slant, it's out there........... 'Mercedes are hypocrites for placing team orders on Bottas, it was so unfair.' 'Kimi did a great job of protecting Vettel'. Has the word hypocrisy suddenly acquired a new meaning? You have to look at the bigger picture though, it's opened the team up for many possible strategic possibilities with their drivers willing to swap places for the good of the team. Who knows there might be another swap needed in the future races and Bottas will be more willing to swap now than if Hamilton hadn't have given the place back; it also shows that the two drivers respect each other and are getting on well as teammates. At the end of the year there might be a situation where Hamilton needs the win to be champion but Bottas is in 1st, Bottas would likely yield the place to get his teammate the championship but if Hamilton hadn't given the place back then he might have disobeyed team orders. As for Mercedes placing team orders on Bottas, I'm certain that Bottas would understand and agree it was the right thing to do because Hamilton was 0.7+ of a second faster and had a greater chance of overtaking the Ferrari's, Hamilton also asked on the radio if he is able to attack Bottas which tells you clearly that Hamilton was cruising behind Bottas just waiting and waiting. The thing is RC, the team didn't tell Hamilton to switch the places back in the last 5 laps, that decision was 100% Hamilton's decision, I'm pretty sure the team were just going to let Hamilton take 3rd because he was 7-8 seconds up the road. Vettel would not have done the same, we've seen it before just look at Multi 21, that's a prime example of how much of a douche Vettel is.
|
|
|
Post by racechick on Jul 31, 2017 10:09:20 GMT
Yep, agree completely RyRy. I get narked like nonodys business when Lewis looses because of excessive technical issues, or dirty play from teammates or competitors. But if he looses out because he did the right thing ( wasn't a Schumacher or Vettel) I'm ok with it. I'll still be glad he chose that action, he's a fair player, strong but fair and like you say, Bottas will respect that. It's great that Lewis has a teammate that plays it straight after a run of douche bags.
|
|
|
Post by dogued on Jul 31, 2017 10:44:52 GMT
Right then. Had some time to reflect. Let's not over read the situation here; Ferrari and Mercedes want maximum points for the team. Ferrari believed that keeping Kimi behind Seb would act as a good buffer to assure a 1-2 finish as he had more speed and more control to defend. Mercedes believed that Lewis was the only one who was going to catch and pass either Ferrari, so made the swap as soon as they could without either driver slowing down (I think Bottas lost 0.3s compared to previous lap by letting Lewis past). Both teams did what they HAD to do. As much as I hate saying it, Ferrari did the perfect job.
On an individual basis, Kimi has every right to be a bit pissed. If that drive, along with a couple of others so far this year, doesn't get him a 1yr extension, I don't know what will. Ferrari need to have a signed contract for him before Spa, or you might not see "nice" Kimi at the end of the season when Seb needs a mate.
Lewis on the other hand, probably surprised Bottas with that move, and has earned the trust and respect of his teammate and team in one hit. Heading to the Americas leg of the season, I have no doubt that Bottas will be happy to play the rear gunner when needed (unless he is within 10 points). We saw early in the season that Bottas came to Mercedes expecting team orders and expecting to be a #2, I can only imagine how delighted he is to be in his current position and how he will pay that forward.
There are a lot of "fans" on other sites quick to point out that Lewis wasn't so nice to Nico. They are happy to find a reason to slam Lewis for the move. I think they tend to forget that Nico wasn't Mr Squeaky Clean and brought a lot of animosity upon himself from years of competing with Lewis. My personal thoughts are that Lewis is offering a friendly gesture to Bottas because there is no history, but if burned later on, wouldn't be so kind.
|
|
|
Post by Wß on Jul 31, 2017 11:05:26 GMT
Lewis' only failure really was cocking up Q3. Had he split the Ferrari or been on the clean line by beating Bottas in qualifying he'd have been in a much better position to press Vettel. He wasn't.
This was a track where overtaking is impossible if you've got unevenly matched tires or cars or drivers with nothing to lose. Overtaking is simply not going to happen unless there's a forced error or strategy overtake.
It was never going to be Mercedes' strong track, and yet they still had a car with more than enough pace for the race (at least in Hamilton's hands) That's a good thing.
Ferrari were in a must win situation to stay alive for the season. The next two circuits not only play to Mercedes' hand but to their rival's weaknesses. Bottas gets in front of the Ferrari both times and the season is over for Vettel. The season is already over for Ferrari.
It's a long year.
|
|
|
Post by RyRy on Jul 31, 2017 13:13:46 GMT
Ferrari believed that keeping Kimi behind Seb would act as a good buffer to assure a 1-2 finish as he had more speed and more control to defend. Mercedes believed that Lewis was the only one who was going to catch and pass either Ferrari, so made the swap as soon as they could without either driver slowing down (I think Bottas lost 0.3s compared to previous lap by letting Lewis past). Both teams did what they HAD to do. As much as I hate saying it, Ferrari did the perfect job. On an individual basis, Kimi has every right to be a bit pissed. If that drive, along with a couple of others so far this year, doesn't get him a 1yr extension, I don't know what will. Ferrari need to have a signed contract for him before Spa, or you might not see "nice" Kimi at the end of the season when Seb needs a mate. Lewis on the other hand, probably surprised Bottas with that move, and has earned the trust and respect of his teammate and team in one hit. Heading to the Americas leg of the season, I have no doubt that Bottas will be happy to play the rear gunner when needed (unless he is within 10 points). We saw early in the season that Bottas came to Mercedes expecting team orders and expecting to be a #2, I can only imagine how delighted he is to be in his current position and how he will pay that forward. There are a lot of "fans" on other sites quick to point out that Lewis wasn't so nice to Nico. They are happy to find a reason to slam Lewis for the move. I think they tend to forget that Nico wasn't Mr Squeaky Clean and brought a lot of animosity upon himself from years of competing with Lewis. My personal thoughts are that Lewis is offering a friendly gesture to Bottas because there is no history, but if burned later on, wouldn't be so kind. Bottas' lap went from a 1:22.040 to a 1:24.403 so he lost 2.4~ seconds in that lap. After their pits this is their times, Hamilton is on the left, Bottas is on the right: I have no doubt that Ferrari did the right thing for the team but it's a dick move, I'm sure Hamilton would have managed to get passed Vettel as Raikkonen would have likely pulled a bit of a gap on Vettel which would help Hamilton out. Lewis wasn't so nice to Nico because Nico wasn't so nice to Lewis, it's that simple. You give respect, you get respect. Simple. Bottas has come across very respectful from the very start of his F1 career. Lewis' only failure really was cocking up Q3. Had he split the Ferrari or been on the clean line by beating Bottas in qualifying he'd have been in a much better position to press Vettel. He wasn't. This was a track where overtaking is impossible if you've got unevenly matched tires or cars or drivers with nothing to lose. Overtaking is simply not going to happen unless there's a forced error or strategy overtake. It was never going to be Mercedes' strong track, and yet they still had a car with more than enough pace for the race (at least in Hamilton's hands) That's a good thing. Ferrari were in a must win situation to stay alive for the season. The next two circuits not only play to Mercedes' hand but to their rival's weaknesses. Bottas gets in front of the Ferrari both times and the season is over for Vettel. The season is already over for Ferrari. It's a long year. I really don't think Lewis had much of a chance in qualli, his clean lap was a pretty damn good lap the car just wasn't there for them. You're right this track is a shithole for overtaking and Lewis said on the radio that he's just going to sit behind and wait for a mistake as he couldn't overtake due to the dirty air on the last corner. If Hamilton's radio was working I genuinely think he could have won the race. Mercedes should get 1, 2 in the next 2 tracks and I expect Hamilton to win both of them.
|
|
|
Post by dogued on Jul 31, 2017 13:23:39 GMT
RyRy I saw the lap times, but I believed that was lapped traffic that was more of a factor, however without re-watching the lap I'll bow to the raw data.
|
|
|
Post by Hammer on Jul 31, 2017 16:13:26 GMT
Now this Toto flip flops over his 'feelingsssss' about the swap.
"Saying I wouldn't regret the decision would be very naive," he said. "The truth is that if we miss out on the championship by those two or three points, everybody would say it is because of Budapest. And I would be the first to shoot myself in the knee.
"Nevertheless, I think long term, standing by what you say and standing by your values, is going to make us win more championships. It was a tough call to make and a very difficult one. Believe me, it is probably the most difficult call we had to make in the last five years, because we were not sure how close Max would come at the end.
"So I am not in a happy place at the moment. But what can I say? If you are not fast enough at least you are sportsmanlike."
While Ferrari has traditionally favoured a lead driver ahead of a teammate playing a supporting role, Mercedes has tried to let its drivers race where possible. Though there have been exceptions, such as the Bahrain Grand Prix where Hamilton was allowed past a struggling Bottas to attack Vettel, the team is still yet to throw its weight behind one driver.
Wolff, who was visibly frustrated in his post-race media session, says protecting the overall brand image of Mercedes outweighs winning a championship the wrong way.
"We don't drive in circles because we enjoy it so much. We drive in circles because we hope that it promotes our brand and makes us sell cars, and it's a very long term project. If you come here and you think this is what counts only, you are wrong.
"We have seen the backlash of decisions that were ruthless and cold blooded, and the effect it had on a brand. Now you could say screw it, it still on them the championships, who cares, we are down in the history books, but I don't think this is the right thing.
"If I come back to what I think or what the purpose of us being here is, it is doing the right things and winning in the right way. Sometimes doing it the right way and standing by your values is very tough. And it was today. I feel terrible."
_________________________________________________
Poor little cupcake, maybe he needs a therapist. jeez, either stick with your post race feelings or be sincere about it from the very start!
|
|
|
Post by Wß on Jul 31, 2017 16:17:26 GMT
Just Monday morning quarterbacking. I think if they felt that they didn't have a leg up on Ferrari for the remainder of the season, they'd have instructed Lewis to remain in place.
|
|
|
Post by Wß on Aug 2, 2017 11:01:42 GMT
|
|
|
Post by London on Aug 3, 2017 18:59:03 GMT
|
|