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Post by Wß on Feb 21, 2017 18:31:39 GMT
Sweden, rape capital of the world. See that's the problem, you "hear" that crap spewed by people you support or maybe Nigel Fromage and it's bought without any further challenge. So when you've already bought the person as delivering good information (generally good only because you agree with it) then it's impossible to have a discussion or even begin a dialogue. This seems addresses your rape capital of the world comment.
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Post by racechick on Feb 21, 2017 18:53:25 GMT
What is news thought? How much of it can be reported? What is relevant? What is specifically chosen? Does it make you feel any better that there's nothing being reported of that here? News not being reported is not fake news though, There's a certain sensationalist value that has to come along with it or else it's not reported. Like Like thousands of people dying in Africa is not equivalent to a dozen people being kill in the EU somewhere. Does it bother you that Trump then turns nothing in Sweden into a justification for his very selective Muslim immigration ban here? The point is that news doesn't have to be fair it has to report on facts. Say for example when you bring in a climate change denier and a scientist to speak about the causes or the impact of the climate and whether or not it's man made/affected. There is no point in bringing a denier to that conversation because there science is the science. So being fair in letting the one side that's providing misinformation speak is doing the audience a disservice. We don't have fake news, what we have is facts and alternative facts. One doesn't belong on the air. Like George Carlin would say; Think about how dumb the average person is, and then think about the fact that half of people are dumber than him. Start with Sweden. I don't know what Trump has or hasn't said about Sweden. What I know of Sweden is that they're a very liberal country and have been pursing a multicultural society for 40 yrs or more. Recently they've had to restrict some immigration due to excessive demand. Rapes and similar crimes have gone up hugely recently but not in the last couple of years. These crimes are higher in immigrant communities but much of the high rise in the crimes can be attributed to what Sweden class as 'rape' . They include being asleep or drunk in rape statistics, some countries don't. And if you look at some mainly Muslim countries , rape isn't even a crime. The woman is the guilty party for being raped, she gets stoned, or set on fire. So against countries like that Sweden is going to looks like a rape country. i didnt think Trump had instigated a Muslim ban? I thought he'd just banned people from countries on Obamas list? Climate. There's no denying climate is changing. The debate is about why. And yes, those that say it's man made and those that say it's isn't should be given equal airtime. The science that says it's man made is based on faulty models. So yes, it should be freely debated. I think we do have fake news. We have deliberate fake news, fake news by omission and fake news by stealth. They all have an agenda! It somewhat depends on who decides who is giving misinformation doesn't it? It depends on your standpoint. And if institutions like the BBC are indulging in fake news what do you do? Accept it? How do you determine which are facts and which are not? I think its arrogant to assume people are dumb because they've had different experiences to you. What's dumb? Someone who hasn't been to University? Someone who hasn't been to a red brick Uni? Where does emotional intelligence fit in? You can't Categorise people like that.
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Post by racechick on Feb 21, 2017 19:04:15 GMT
I addressed the 'rape capital of the world ' in my last reply. It's Farage, not fromage, and I haven't heard his views on Sweden either. So I haven't just spewed his views or anyone else's.
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Post by LRW on Feb 21, 2017 19:21:56 GMT
Can you show me where you learnt that climate change is based on faulty models?
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Post by Wß on Feb 21, 2017 19:30:19 GMT
Fromage was my making light of him being a Trump lackey.I'm feeling really crummy with a cold today so I though it was hilarious... now that I read it back, and I'm feeling crummier still, it just gave me a chuckle.
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Post by stonemonkey on Feb 21, 2017 21:37:06 GMT
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Post by racechick on Feb 21, 2017 22:24:12 GMT
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Post by racechick on Feb 21, 2017 22:25:49 GMT
Fromage was my making light of him being a Trump lackey.I'm feeling really crummy with a cold today so I though it was hilarious... now that I read it back, and I'm feeling crummier still, it just gave me a chuckle. Sorry you're not feeling good. Lemons and honey. That's the answer! And beechams powders if you can get them.
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Post by racechick on Feb 22, 2017 9:03:08 GMT
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Post by Wß on Feb 22, 2017 13:23:05 GMT
Trump wasn't wrong, he was merely too early in being right!
So what we have here is a riot that now proves what? Immigrants still aren't responsible for an undue % of crime in Sweden. Statistics show that about 1% of crime is committed by immigrants so much lower than their population. And that their label of being the rape capital of the world is a complete right wing affix to associate their rape statistics to the immigrants.
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Post by racechick on Feb 22, 2017 14:31:34 GMT
LOL. Yes, he wasn't wrong, just too early. But how do you know Immigrants are only responsible for 1% of crimes in Sweden? Since for many years they have not been allowed to report ethnicity of criminals in Sweden. Yes, what they class as rape in Sweden has altered, I mentioned that before. So more things now class as rape which partly accounts for the rise in numbers. I'm sure the right are trying to make something more out of this, just as the left are trying to wipe it under the carpet. Maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle? But the fact remains that there are no go areas in Sweden and they are largely Muslim. Muslims haven't integrated well with the Swedish already resident in the country . Malmo is particularly bad. The far right party in Sweden ( anti -immigration) has grown from being of no consequence, to tying as second most popular party. Why would that be? Why have the people of Sweden, a very liberal country, begun to support an anti immigration party if there are no issues?
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Post by Wß on Feb 22, 2017 14:45:02 GMT
That isn't a fact, a police officer saying so is an anecdote. Not a fact. When I was growing up there were "no go" areas in Manhattan alphabet city where you'd literally see an overturned car on fire and people would walk right past. Rent was cheap so friends lived there.
The reason the far right has made strides is the same reason we have Trump as a president here. The same reason the Brexit won, the same reason that there's a far right movement in France. Ignorance fanned by the flames of fear is the recipe for hatred. It's always been that way and it works.
So flood the data with meaningless anecdotes of your own and get the right people to repeat them over and over again, blame the media for being untrustworthy and blame anyone that's different for being the cause of any and all problems we face as a society today and voila.
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Post by racechick on Feb 22, 2017 17:00:40 GMT
Yes it is a fact. The last time Stockholm repoted crimes by immigrants was over a decade ago, 2005. Nothing to do with anecdotes from policemen.
Do you not think it's somewhat simplistic to say the rise of the right wing across Europe is 'ignorance' in over 50% of the population? People who are living in these countries, They're ignorant? France, Germany, Austria, Holland, Hungary, Sweden, Italy........
Do you not think the liberal left have been naive in assuming millions and millions of poorly educated people with different morals and cultures can be quickly assimilated into a modern western society?
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Post by Wß on Feb 22, 2017 19:46:36 GMT
You didn't watch the video I shared yesterday! Look a it, you can start it at the 8:20 mark. There's actually data from 2005 all the way through 2014 and despite their rate of immigration going up, crime is down. Down, that's a fact. You can't negate that, you can't just listen to someone (that you trust) and take their word for it. So crime in general in Sweden is down and immigration is up, that does not fit the narrative.
So that's the problem.
BTW America is the poster child for poorly educated immigrants by the millions coming in over its 250 year history. Every new wave of immigrants is rejected, different morals? That sounds to me like another dog whistle type of comment. Language, yeah. Customs, yeah. Morals that's an insidious commentary that is only made so they can form the foundation of mistrust.
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Post by Wß on Feb 22, 2017 19:57:36 GMT
I can even save you the trouble of looking at the video. Here's the chart that shows crime rates in Sweden despite them taking in over 100k immigrants a year over the last decade or more. So that's a relatively flat graph overall, despite the million plus immigrants taken in. So something is off. Either Brietbart is trying to inflame people or the Swedish government is covering up crimes by Muslim immigrants to make things seem good. Immigration is a real issue and it brings with it real problems but again, if people just start making shit up fanning the ignorance with the flames of fear then the outcome can only be hatred. Show me data that says otherwise and I'll be more than happy to take it into consideration.
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Post by racechick on Feb 22, 2017 22:35:00 GMT
Yes, I'm sorry, I hadn't looked at the video, I didn't know if had data in it, I just thought from the front that it was Trump on a rant. I've seen lots of graphs showing crime rates in Sweden and they seem to vary hugely depending who is reporting them and how they are reporting them . There's one in this article that shows a rise in crime www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/22/data-analysis-true-scale-immigration-crime-sweden-five-charts/The following graph shows a massive rise is sex crimes , especaillay against women. The graph is taken from an official Swedish crime statistics As I said before Sweden stopped reporting ethnic origin of crime perpetrators in 2011( I think) . Up till then immigrants were overrepresented in the crime statistics . You might find this an interesting read. It answers a lot of questions about why Sweden has these issues with immigration, how it all arose and why . www.pugetsound.edu/files/resources/1359_ImmigrationInSweden.doc
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Post by Wß on Feb 22, 2017 23:46:45 GMT
Okay so looking at your own chart there which is the same source that I had my chart from. What you see here is just what's being discussed. The "rape capital". Crime against women is going up since 2012, but again that's because the definition of rape has been expanded, so a woman going into the police to say that her husband or boyfriend abused her is classified as a sexual assault and not domestic violence. Good on Sweden for that.
What you're saying in that immigrants were being over represented in crime statistics is a red herring. You have more immigrants over all, if immigrants are the source of crime then you have more crime overall. It's as simple as that. But the same sources shows that not to be the case.
Why or who is misleading you into making that leap of faith? There is no logic in it, there is no way that it can make sense unless there's a manipulating hand at play that's guiding the narrative. You can't make it up based on the numbers.
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Post by racechick on Feb 23, 2017 0:29:28 GMT
No one is misleading me, I'm just stating the facts.
Sweden changed what was categorised as rape in 2005. So all the data on that graph is post the recategirisation. Therefore that cannot account for the almost tripling of rapes against women between 2011 and 2014
The BRÅ has not released detailed data on rape committed by immigrants since 1996, but according to a report by them individuals with an immigrant background, excluding nordic countries, made up 30% of all rape convictions between 1985 and 1989. That's a very high percentage, and That's convictions, not just reports to the police.
So I don't know . Someone's got the figures wrong.
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Post by Wß on Feb 23, 2017 4:48:29 GMT
So you're saying that women being raped since 2011 has tripled therefore is must be the immigrants doing the raping? That sounds an awful lot like fear mongering to me. Like it shows on the other graphs I shared, crime overall is down or flat despite the influx of immigrants. Now you saying that since data isn't kept of who is committing the crimes it must the immigrants because data said that 30% of rape convictions in the past were of immigrants. What's the percentage of immigrants overall? In 2016 there were 9.8 million people living there, Muslim immigrants would be accounting for easily 12~15% of the entire population, so why is the spike only since 2011 when immigrants have been allowed in bulk numbers since 2005? You can't any more attribute the rise of sexual assaults to immigrants than I can say it's the rise of extreme right wing criminals going on a rape spree since 2011, the timeline fits the rise of neo-nazi sentiments spreading across the EU and my claim would be just as valid as the details you're sharing, because they're both anecdotal conjecture. You know what the statistics show in the US that one in three women is sexually assaulted over their lifetime, it's not Syrian immigrants doing it here. So you can look at the facts that we have or you can speculate, but you can't do both and you certainly wouldn't want to run national policy based ignorance and fear. Trust me, it's not turned out so well here in the states.
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Post by racechick on Feb 23, 2017 8:43:56 GMT
Mass immigration has been the policy in Sweden for the last forty years. It's not just since 2005 as your graph shows.
I'm not saying women being raped has tripled since 2011 THEREFORE it must be the immigrants doing the raping . That's your deduction of the facts I gave you.
I'm saying the graph shows rape increased threefold over a period of a few years. I'm also saying Sweden haven't reported ethnicity of criminals since 2005, so you can't determine who perpetrates the crimes.
And I'm saying The BRÅ has not released detailed data on rape committed by immigrants since 1996, but according to a report individuals with an immigrant background, excluding nordic countries, made up 30% of all rape convictions between 1985 and 1989.
On crime in general. I don't know how you arrive at the fact there has been no rise . It simply isn't true.
In 1995, the first year for which statistics are easily available on the Crime Agency’s website, there were 179 murders in Sweden, of which 29 involved guns; in 2014 there were 317, of which 74 involved guns. (Guardian)
Knife crime In 2015, approximately 9,700 offences against the Knife Act were reported. This is a 14 per cent increase as compared with the preceding year. (Bra)
Murder In 2015, 112 cases of lethal violence were confirmed in Sweden. This can be seen from the statistic regarding confirmed cases of lethal violence. This is an increase by 25 cases, as compared with 2014. (Bra)
Vandalism In 2015, 195,000 criminal damage offences were reported, which is 29 per cent more than the preceding year. Tagging on public transportation and other graffiti constitute most of the increase. Total reported criminal damage offences have increased by 32 per cent since 2006. (Bra)
That looks like some very big crime increases to me. And those are the facts, not speculation.
For political reasons Sweden don't like to broadcast rises in crime, particularly rapes. It's why they covered up the Stockholm gang rapes of young teanagers.
And now Sweden are cutting back on refugees. Why would they do that if there's no problem in their society as a result of the refugee policy?
Running a government on fear and ignorance is certainly no way to go. Nor is denying facts or covering them up, that is equally dangerous.
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