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Post by CookinFlat6 on Mar 13, 2015 18:48:24 GMT
Finally we can discuss the engines in a quantitative and rational manner.
After all the speculation the facts are as follows;
Mercedes have used 25 tokens and so have seven remaining, while Ferrari have still to use 10 and Renault 12.
So Merc have developed more than its rivals, who, as we all suspected last year after the unfreeze, would take more time to update at the cost of an early increased gap to Merc. So effectively Ferrari and Renault have both stifled themselves from developing so far.
This must indicate that the engine gap has not been narrowed at all by either maker. Which must then indicate that Ferraris apparent big improvement in testing was down to reverse sandbagging - i.e showboating. If they have closed by more than 2 units to Renault then they have out developed Renault this winter. And we see Red Bull are not much better than before, so there could be a lot of disappointed face painted fans in quali and/or the race
Now lets say they havent really out developed Renault - as testing suggests and they have made gains on the chassis, then it would suggest that the engine is not as big a diferentiator as there excuse.
Williams should really be spanking Ferrari given their Merc engine has been improved almost twice as much as the Ferrari - but no, we see Ferrari and Sauber topping time shets everywhere
Maybe the real giveaway is Kimi vs Seb. On the short runs Seb (and Kimi) appears very fast- almost like Ferrari are the 2nd best team, but on long runs Kimi beats him comfortably hmmn
Has Kimi improved or has his benchmark got a lot worse,
If this is all the usual smoke and mirrors, we could see Williams, Lotus and maybe even force India ahead of ferrari and Red Bull
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Post by Wß on Mar 13, 2015 18:57:41 GMT
Well on the engine front what this REALLY means is that the teams, in order to do what they wanted to do couldn't/can't use all of the available tokens and had to save some tokens to use in conjunction with next year's tokens to be able to close the gap. A lack of time and a shortage of tokens was the problem, now only the shortage of tokens was the problem. So the cost of in year development is introduced with out the gains as the main gains for all manufacturers will come next year. So as you say, the engine gap this year could be bigger while costing the teams more. F1 never fails to entertain.
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Post by RyRy on Mar 13, 2015 22:41:40 GMT
Mercedes played their tokens in a way to try and prevent Honda (who they feel are going to be their biggest rival) from getting too many tokens. They've upgraded parts of their engine to make sure they get another WCC & WDC but kept 20% just incase a problem pops up here or there.
Ferrari & Renault have withheld lots of their tokens because they know they can't catch Mercedes this year and more than likely next year. They're saving tokens so they can do a series of changes at the end of the year to essentially make it so they have MORE tokens next year.
The token allocation in my opinion is too high for any team, within year 1 and year 2 you can pretty much make a brand new engine...
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Post by CookinFlat6 on Mar 18, 2015 20:26:56 GMT
This is an excellent article from F1technical that illustrates the true cost of the engine unfreeze for teams impatient or prone to knee jerkism. i.e. exactly who the original freeze rules were meant to protect from costs passed on by the engine supplier after each update
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ichabod
Full Member
Posts: 183
Likes: 147
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Post by ichabod on Mar 18, 2015 21:36:46 GMT
I'm glad things are coming back to bite Horner in the ass
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Post by Wß on Mar 19, 2015 0:48:38 GMT
For Daniel, even if they're able to repair the ICE, it's a seal or something like that and it can be repaired, it still has to stay in the rotation. If later in the season Renault figure out their issues and makes improvements on a subsequent unit, that original ICE must be used and will fall further behind when compared to newer Renault engines.
Effectively, forcing the team to declare that unit bad if they don't want to have that performance gap in the future, throwing out a perfectly good ICE. The cost of doing business in F1.
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Post by racechick on Mar 19, 2015 10:10:02 GMT
An excellent article Cookie, thanks for posting! Oh dear Mr. Horner, what have you done in your rush to reign in Mercedes. I bet they're having a bit of a laugh at you. But they did warn you!
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Post by RyRy on Mar 19, 2015 10:35:32 GMT
I wonder if Horner realises deep down that he's pathetic...
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Post by CookinFlat6 on Mar 19, 2015 13:55:22 GMT
Its does appear as though a once a year well planned and prepared major update for all 4 units would work best for each engine maker especially with several customers. For those makers with only one customer, the huge costs of the process EACH time a performance update was physically deployed on a new engine was not deemed worth it for the gains. Better to upgrade 4 things at once after a whole year of preparation, rather than 4 upgrades during the year with the big chance of one not working and being stuck with it for 5 races anyway
This is exactly what Red Bull have done. rushed out an update that hasnt really worked and therefore do they replace it completely for the next race (waste 5 races engine wise) or do they use the dud for the 5 races knowing its a dud. What if they replace it for the next race, i.e. in a hurry and that replacement is also a dud, or causes conflict with another component, do they stick or replace, etc etc etc
Wouldnt it better to plan properly ALL upgrades, bench test, install and test over Winter then have the reliability updates thru the year, instead of scrambling around to upgrade parts, wasting money and getting worse results.
Renault obviously gave up and said 'ok Horner, lets do it like you want' Just like the halwit yardsticks were clamouring for race by race engine development and claiming Merc held them back by sticking to the freeze rules
Now they have exactly what they wanted and have gone backwards, spent more, stressed Renault and are looking at using 3 engines in 2 races and using tokens like sticking plasters
And I bet there are some imbeciles on the other sites who are still claiming someone is held back, despite Renault not even allwoed to hold themselves back because of the idiocy of Horner and the F1 yardsticks of the least amount of knowledge or F1 interest
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Post by Hammer on Mar 19, 2015 15:27:18 GMT
Came across this, just leaving it here.
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Post by LRW on Mar 27, 2015 10:43:17 GMT
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Post by Wß on Mar 27, 2015 11:27:24 GMT
On a related note, Red Bull wants their fifth engine to be supplied by Mercedes.
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Post by LRW on Mar 27, 2015 14:40:37 GMT
you need to have different material for here and facebook.
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Post by Hammer on Mar 27, 2015 14:43:28 GMT
The war has begun. Renault now saying they could leave F1 or buy out another team to compete as a full fledged manufacturer.
I see this as a big "F U" to RB....rather than actual talk.
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Post by RyRy on Mar 27, 2015 15:02:34 GMT
I would love to see RB end up with no Engine provider
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Post by LRW on Mar 27, 2015 15:15:05 GMT
Id love to see Renault buy a team, give them a kick arse engine, and let RB wallow in their own mess.
Mark my words, if RBR are still in F1 in 2017 it will be powered by a Honda.
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Post by Wß on Mar 27, 2015 16:07:04 GMT
Id love to see Renault buy a team, give them a kick arse engine, and let RB wallow in their own mess. Mark my words, if RBR are still in F1 in 2017 it will be powered by a Honda. Don't think they'll wait till 2017. I do hope that Renault purchase out Toro Rosso through.
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Post by LRW on Mar 27, 2015 17:48:55 GMT
I only say 2017 because RBR are contracted with Renault till 2016. I thought.
(I know contracts aren't worth their salt in F1)
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Post by racechick on Mar 27, 2015 23:59:43 GMT
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Post by LRW on Mar 30, 2015 8:12:37 GMT
Lol
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