|
Post by CookinFlat6 on Jul 26, 2015 21:00:42 GMT
Ok so we have seen the Mercs have slow starts to many times for it to be a coincidence. We havent necessarily seen Williams and Ferrari have fantastic starts, we can conclude that its Merc having abnormally poor starts. This is because both drivers are similarly jumped each time.
So with the new manual starts from Spa, contrary to what seems logical - that Merc will suffer, it could actually be a big advantage to Merc and to Lewis in particular. Heres why - Mercs bad starts are obviously down to software, i.e wrong settings or models. If a lot of that is handed over to th driver, then the advantage the other teams have largely disappears. So its unlikely that Lewis plus Nico suddenly got similarly bad at starts, so its the software that sets the revs an dumps the clutch. The other teams have better systems right now, so remove systems and its down to drivers vs drivers, a level playing field
And the drivers with most instinctive feel gain, so Lewis should gain vs Nico.
Pre Spa poll - What do we think?
|
|
|
Post by RyRy on Jul 27, 2015 8:30:26 GMT
Well according to some rumours Mercedes have been practicing semi manual starts for the last two races because they think like everyone else did that their performance difference would be enough to get them back to 1st and 2nd
Which sounds pretty logical and probably true, unfortunately at this last race Rosberg was just too slow and Hamilton made mistakes.
|
|
|
Post by CookinFlat6 on Jul 27, 2015 8:43:20 GMT
But that doesnt make sense as the automated launch must be faster than a manual, just like automatic gear changes are quicker than any human, so big risk at a track with no straights to risk stalling or worse.
You could be right in that it seems too much of a coincidence to have 2 collective very bad starts vs everyone else, jut before the new rule comes into play
Could be Paddy using his Mclaren training to make decisions
|
|
|
Post by Hammer on Jul 27, 2015 11:22:03 GMT
But that doesnt make sense as the automated launch must be faster than a manual, just like automatic gear changes are quicker than any human, so big risk at a track with no straights to risk stalling or worse. You could be right in that it seems too much of a coincidence to have 2 collective very bad starts vs everyone else, jut before the new rule comes into play Could be Paddy using his Mclaren training to make decisionsI really wouldn't be surprised.... I mean IF it's whats happening, its a freakin dumb decision and Wolff has to be another dumbass to support it. I highly doubt it though.
|
|
|
Post by CookinFlat6 on Jul 27, 2015 12:15:58 GMT
It could be part of the old 'Ferrari need special assistance' - maybe Bernie has requested Merc do manual starts to spice up the show and give the others a chance - and Ferrari were too lame at Silverstone to benefit as were Williams in Hungary
I would be a lot less surprised by that than by Paddy being allowed to experiment - lets face it they have had about 9 free practice sessions now to practice manual starts since the announcement
|
|
|
Post by RyRy on Jul 27, 2015 13:32:38 GMT
But that doesnt make sense as the automated launch must be faster than a manual, just like automatic gear changes are quicker than any human, so big risk at a track with no straights to risk stalling or worse. You could be right in that it seems too much of a coincidence to have 2 collective very bad starts vs everyone else, jut before the new rule comes into play Could be Paddy using his Mclaren training to make decisions Of course an automatic start is much faster but they were nearly a second faster all weekend and actually in the race Hamilton was nearly a second faster so they still had that pace they'd shown previously. Regardless of the long straights they (Hamilton for sure) should have been able to get past either on track or at least with an undercut. The semi-manual route would stop them from stalling still, as far as I know i thought the anti stall will stay for safety. It could be part of the old 'Ferrari need special assistance' - maybe Bernie has requested Merc do manual starts to spice up the show and give the others a chance - and Ferrari were too lame at Silverstone to benefit as were Williams in Hungary I would be a lot less surprised by that than by Paddy being allowed to experiment - lets face it they have had about 9 free practice sessions now to practice manual starts since the announcement Haha, I'm sure Mercedes have done a few things for the sport/bernie already. Comparing practice starts in vs race starts is different, direct comparison to see how they fair against the automatic starters can only be done in race starts Next race will be very interesting for the starts, remember it's an uphill start too so that adds to it. If Mercedes fly away at the start then it confirms they've been testing and working on it. We could potentially see a car like Manor fly through the field at the starts, back like the Renault style starts we had in 06?
|
|
|
Post by CookinFlat6 on Jul 27, 2015 14:56:11 GMT
Comparing practice starts in vs race starts is different, direct comparison to see how they fair against the automatic starters can only be done in race starts Good point If Mercedes fly away at the start then it confirms they've been testing and working on it. We could potentially see a car like Manor fly through the field at the starts, back like the Renault style starts we had in 06? There will be no software assists for holding revs, bite point or dumping clutch i.e completely manual sequence of actions by the driver, therefore we should see much less inter team difference and much more intra team difference between drivers i.e it will be easier for a driver to screw up the sequence of actions than for any teams sequence or process to be better than anothers
|
|
|
Post by RyRy on Jul 27, 2015 17:52:31 GMT
If Mercedes fly away at the start then it confirms they've been testing and working on it. We could potentially see a car like Manor fly through the field at the starts, back like the Renault style starts we had in 06? There will be no software assists for holding revs, bite point or dumping clutch i.e completely manual sequence of actions by the driver, therefore we should see much less inter team difference and much more intra team difference between drivers i.e it will be easier for a driver to screw up the sequence of actions than for any teams sequence or process to be better than anothers I only mentioned the renault style get away to try and emphasise that some team(s) might have a far superior car for getting off the grid than others. Sure there will be no software, bite points, dumping clutch... etc but I fully expect at least one team to be a stand out when it comes to the starts, I actually think it will be Red Bull... banning automatic starts has/does open the starts up for some development for teams to find a non-automatic way to improve their starts without the use of any software.
|
|
|
Post by racechick on Jul 27, 2015 18:09:08 GMT
I read somewhere that Merc had apologised to tneir drivers for the starts. I think it may have been in a reply to Mr. Dontknowshit McEvoy. Both drivers had different problems that Merc accepted was their issue. One bogged down, one wheelspin ....I think Leiws bogged down and Nico got wheelspin, but not sure.
Yes I think the new rules will favour Merc as they clearly have issues with the current system. If it goes back to driver feel one has to favour Lewis over Nico. Why? The fact that Nico always wants to copy Lewis rather than go with best feel. And also I remember that test where Merc true to replicate the clutch problem that Lewis had. Lewis got away but lost positions...he was working blind. When Nico tried it he stalled the car.
|
|
|
Post by Wß on Jul 27, 2015 20:17:20 GMT
I'm glad there's nearly a month's time to figure it out. Just about everyone was doing test starts out of the pit lane in Hungary, even during the reconnaissance lap on Sunday.
|
|
|
Post by racechick on Jul 29, 2015 9:08:25 GMT
An interesting article here with both Lewis and Toto expressing serious concerns at the mercedes starts. apparantly Lewis'clutch overheated after the first aborted start and Nico just got wheelspin. But Hamilton has now been compromised because of his clutch at Spain, Austria, Silverstone and Hungary. Nico also at the latter two. these starts are what put the drivers in difficult positions, into areas of unneccessary danger. Whilst both Nico and Lewis welcome the new manual starts...Nico because he feels it gives him more opportunity to beat Lewis, Lewis because he always refers to have more control, Lewis in particular thinks there will be issues arising because if it and the rule may need tweaking. www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jul/27/lewis-hamilton-mercedes-start-changes-spa-belgian-grand-prix-ferrari-f1
|
|
|
Post by CookinFlat6 on Jul 29, 2015 9:43:06 GMT
Interesting video from FOM showing the 4 drivers onboards at the start. We will see more and more of these start manouvres from all drivers from Spa. We should no longer have processional first laps, with the order almost guaranteed to be different by the end of the first lap www.formula1.com/content/fom-website/en/video/2015/7/Mixed_fortunes_at_the_front_of_the_grid_in_Hungary.htmlWhat I see here is Seb being overaggressive and selfish - similar to his starts of pole where he cuts across the track forcing the others to brake or be pasted in the wall. He gets away with this because its the first lap. Lewis was compromised by this swerving into his path and as he had Nico on the right opted to brake early, his only other choices were to get taken out by Seb or to risk taking out Nico. I have a feeling Seb is gonna become a liability at the manual starts because he just does a MS and has no real empathy or feel for what others are doing around him. Lewis has to get pole each time and hope to be ahead of any mayhem, and even if he drops a place or 2 needs to keep clear of any desperadoes around. It will be very very good for Alonso - he will gain places all the time, Button I think will lose places even more than before.
|
|
|
Post by Wß on Jul 29, 2015 18:39:05 GMT
Vettel has done that always and yeah the assessment of what happened is pretty accurate. Someone should have the role of coaching Lewis to get into a planted position and then use the speed of the car to overtake. He made a mistake trying to immediately go after Rosberg which cost him 6 more grid spots, it was all an uphill batter from there. Coudashoudawoulda... it's this kind of sports coaching that needs to happen. We love the guy for not holding back, it's what marks him in 2011 vs. Button, where Button defeated Lewis because he was looking for 2nd in the WDC while Lewis was looking to beat Vettel every time there was an opportunity to do so.
It was shades of that on Sunday where the reality was sitting and biding his time would have gotten him around all three cars in front of him by the first pit stop. But that's not how he does it. I realized I hadn't voted, just did.
|
|
|
Post by CookinFlat6 on Jul 30, 2015 0:42:28 GMT
Thing is that I am not absolutely convinced Lewis was going for an overtake, more like he was force to react to Nicos lack of pace/aggression and his uncertain switching at least twice. Lewis just wasnt on it that first lap, trying caution and then presented with a slim chance which turned to shit and he got punished by dropping to 10th
Hopefully Niki will sit him down and give him his benefit of experience of surviving messy first laps, cruise and collect for the first lap is fine if its only Nico that needs to be passed during the next 50 laps
|
|
|
Post by racechick on Jul 30, 2015 7:06:56 GMT
This is talken from the Toto interview I posted in the MERC thread. He alludes to the Lewis / Nico incident but stops short of calling blame.
Q: Toto, is frustration the prevailing mood at Mercedes after that race?
Toto Wolff: Yes - I think in English they call it a cr*ppy day in the office! (laughs) Today we’ve had more incidents in one single race than at all the previous races put together. And if you have such a bad start - and that’s not for the first time - then you get pushed into a corner that you definitely do not want to be in. And then the unhappy situation between Nico and Lewis - and I would really call that an unhappy situation - then you are on the road from bad to worse.
|
|
|
Post by CookinFlat6 on Aug 11, 2015 20:41:32 GMT
This could turn into another royal F1 screw up, alongsid double points and exploding tyres. Even if the cars keep the anti stall systems, some drivers are still going to be as slow getting off the line as actually stalling - safety wise.
So it could be very dangerous to sit near the back of the grid with Maldo behind and Jenson in front. Say you get bogged down completely and spin the wheels, snake the tail and go nowhere - Maldo will ram you and Jenson will be going backwards into you at the same time
|
|
|
Post by racechick on Aug 11, 2015 21:05:12 GMT
That sounds like rubbish. Rather than handing control to the drivers it sounds like a lottery with the driver able to do nothing.
|
|
|
Post by CookinFlat6 on Aug 13, 2015 12:31:32 GMT
Originally it sounded like the 2 clutch system would still be used, except the first bitepoint clutch setting can no longer be changed, no it sounds like a whole different ballgame, no wonder the engineers are moaning, no one seems to be sure whats allowed or what should be done
According to Button
So it now sounds as though the first clutch used to hold the car at the bitepoint will not be used at all, instead the second clutch only will be used to hold the bitepoint then engage the power - or the other way round, first clutch used for both bitepoint and then dumped for full power. This will mean that he clutch now gets many times more abuse from the driver than it did from computer, and so theres a serious possibility of a driver having no clutch at a pit stop because he already toasted it off the start - assuming they would use the othr one for gear changes as before
|
|
|
Post by Wß on Aug 13, 2015 12:40:13 GMT
We shall soon find out. I don't really care if there are slow starts, that will simply spice up things. What I'm afraid of are stalls up the grid blind to those at speed behind.
|
|
|
Post by racechick on Aug 13, 2015 17:35:36 GMT
Why can't they think these things through? I'm all for giving control back to the driver. But why rush it? Why not wait till they can give the drivers a clutch suitable and robust enough for manual race starts?
|
|