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Post by Wß on Aug 25, 2015 12:06:08 GMT
I understand that RC, and it's not unfounded. However I wouldn't blame Pirelli even though they are the face of it. I ran across something on another forum that put it very well and in my opinion is the real issue behind the anger at Pirelli.
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Post by Wß on Aug 25, 2015 16:50:57 GMT
Good write up from Martin Brundle on Sky Sports touching on essentially the issues we've been beating up on here.
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Post by racechick on Aug 26, 2015 10:28:31 GMT
A little more on the tyre situation. Back in June this year Michelin expressed interest in being the F1 tyre supplier. At a time when we hadn't had explosive tyre failures for some time. Yet still the drivers were unhappy with the tyre they'd been given to drive on. McLaren's Fernando Alonso, a two-time world champion, said: "Saving tyres and fuel from lap one is more frustrating than the pace itself - when you are so slow and you cannot have wheelspin because you overheat the tyres." But these were the tyres specified by Ecclestone because they would be exciting, would lead to more pitstops. Pascal Couasnon ( Michelin) has said they are "disappointed with where F1 is tyre-wise". And, "there's another way to ensure a good show, with high-technology tyres lasting with good grip". Part of Michelins bid suggests the 18 in tyres. So here we have a tyre supplier that appears not to be prepared pander to the wants of Ecclestone. Yet already Ecclestone has previously told teams he expects Pirelli to get the contract. I wonder what will ultimately motivate his decision, and will it have changed after the events of the weekend just gone? Will it be gimmicky excitement? Tyres that drivers can race and push on? Driver safety? I don't think it will be any of those considerations, I think it will be which deal will make the most money for Bernie Ecclestone. More information on Michelin's entry to the tyre talks back in June here www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/33162513And so back to this weekend. In an article, David Coulthard gives his views. Here are a few quotes from the article........ So ( with Spa being the high speed adrenalin fuelled track that it is (to have - as Rosberg and Vettel did - a tyre failure close to Blanchimont or Eau Rouge, the two fastest corners on the track, the immediate thing a driver will think is: "If that had happened just a few metres the other way, it would have been a very different situation." But there is an underlying unhappiness among the grand prix drivers with a whole range of aspects of the Pirelli tyre - its performance profile, its grip level, how you have to deal with it, its general robustness. Pirelli blamed wear, despite there being no evidence from his lap times that this had become excessive. But it is also possible that his tyre, like Rosberg's, had a cut, perhaps from exploring the limits of the track and running over kerbs, as all drivers do. In F1, drivers like Vettel, Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso are not happy with these tyres. The drivers are also unhappy about the fact that Pirelli always seems to blame external factors for tyre failures. Pirelli has been requested to do something to make up for other regulation failures in F1.....................On a public relations level, I just don't get why Pirelli would put itself in the situation in which it currently finds itself in F1. Nobody says what a brilliant tyre manufacturer Pirelli is as a result of its involvement in F1. Pirelli put out a statement late on Sunday night pointing out that two years ago it had suggested maximum mileage limits for each type of tyre used in a grand prix weekend. These were not adopted by F1, it said, and had they been, Vettel's accident would not have happened. ( this is me speaking now, if that's the case why did Pirelli sanction Ferrari's one stop and say the tyre was good for 40 laps? ) Me again: the talks being held before Spa may bring in lap limits. Or Pirelli may say , ' as you were gentlemen, nothing wrong with our tyre." Drivers then have no choice but to accept the situation or boycott the race. And that in my mind is not acceptable particularly at a track like Monza. Coulthard's full article here www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/34043197
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Post by racechick on Aug 26, 2015 11:50:00 GMT
Just today drivers have called for an end to exploding tyres. Former F1 driver Wurz, who leads the GPDA with fellow directors Vettel and Jenson Button, told BBC Sport: "As drivers, we strongly believe the end of a tyre's performance window can and should not be a tyre delamination in the form of an explosion. "I believe there are technologies which prevent such sudden delamination, but for the short term we need to give Pirelli the freedom and support to introduce any measures they declare safe and fit for F1 racing." He said: "We request their utmost attention to the tyre blow-outs at Spa. We need to work together to get on top of such safety concerns." Drivers fear tyre explosions for two reasons: 1. it causes an unexpected loss of control and can lead to a serious accident 2. it is extremely dangerous for any driver closely following a car that has a tyre failure because he can be hit by heavy, flying debris from the tyre. Vettel's tyre exploded on its 29th lap - well within the maximum of 40 laps Pirelli had recommended to Ferrari. The Italian team were also not warned by their Pirelli engineer during that race that they were taking any significant risks. Full article here. www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/34063824
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Post by racechick on Aug 28, 2015 21:55:56 GMT
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Post by Wß on Aug 29, 2015 0:02:37 GMT
So Will is saying what a lot of people have. Vettel's boneheaded abuse of the tires through repeated high stress offs bears the bulk of the responsibility.
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Post by racechick on Aug 29, 2015 7:27:08 GMT
Will is saying that the rules about track limits are wrong. That's what Will's saying. Therefore everyone 'abused' the tyres because they all went over the track limits. He doesn't really get into the fact that Pirelli sanctioned the one stop and said the tyres were good for 40 laps.
Regarding the track limits I agree with him. Sort the rules out so that you take away the stewards ability to use rules to punish people if the face fits and let them off if the face fits.
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Post by racechick on Aug 29, 2015 8:10:56 GMT
Latest on the tyres by Jonathan Noble. The FIA may bring in new rules for Monza regarding tyres if requested to do so by pirelli. Pirelli , Ferrari and the FIA are working closely to find out why Vettel's tyre failed but they still don't know. It's unlikely to be debris because there was no loss of pressure before the blow out. Pirelli still think it's wear even though the other three tyres on Vettel's car showed no sign of wear. They are now looking at other teams tyres for signs of wear. The FIA already monitor camber both stationary and at speed. They also measure starting pressure. Now they will check tyre warmers as there is a suggestion teams were overheating tyres at Spa. Another theory now being evaluated is that it could have been a combination of factors caused by the unique forces cars experience at Spa, with high-speed corners, the compression of Eau Rouge and long straights. The failures may even have been caused by the appearance of standing wave in the tyres, which perhaps contributed to the issues. Photographs of cars through Eau Rouge over the weekend showed the high forces being put through the rubber. uk.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-open-to-new-f1-tyre-safety-guidelines-for-monza/So we have two new possible reasons for the tyres exploding to add to Pirelli's previous litany of excuses. Overheating them, and standing waves. And what of Rosberg's tyre? He wasn't abusing the tyre. It was a practise session. Everything's gone very quiet on Rosberg's blow out. I read elsewhere that Pirelli said, after looking into the Rosberg explosion, that Mercedes tyre management was exemplary.
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Post by CookinFlat6 on Aug 29, 2015 9:43:38 GMT
Seb has found himself in the same place Lewis was in 2011 - having to take risks with dnfs to compete with far better car. If Seb had settled for 4th he would have 10 points more, however he wouldnt have a chance of winning a WDC.
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Post by Hammer on Aug 29, 2015 10:29:08 GMT
Seb has found himself in the same place Lewis was in 2011 - having to take risks with dnfs to compete with far better car. If Seb had settled for 4th he would have 10 points more, however he wouldnt have a chance of winning a WDC. Which is something I find refreshing and likeable about Vettel. He's no cruise and collector, respect.
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Post by Wß on Aug 29, 2015 11:21:38 GMT
Those aren't new theories RC, they're the same things I posted pictures of in the other thread. f1forum.org/thread/291/vettels-tyre?page=1If a guy with a careful eye on his PVR can spot that then of course they're factors. The Rosberg thing, although unfortunate was by everyone's account a freak cut.
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Post by racechick on Aug 29, 2015 23:37:10 GMT
I didn't see anything in your pictures about overheating tyres. And the wave thingy, sounds like Pirelli are saying they didnt take into account the unique nature of the Spa circuit. One would have expected a tyre manufacturer of their experience to have done that.
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Post by CookinFlat6 on Aug 30, 2015 0:34:19 GMT
Seb has found himself in the same place Lewis was in 2011 - having to take risks with dnfs to compete with far better car. If Seb had settled for 4th he would have 10 points more, however he wouldnt have a chance of winning a WDC. Which is something I find refreshing and likeable about Vettel. He's no cruise and collector, respect. I would like to think Seb is as racey as Lewis, however everytime I give him the benefit of doubt, he always goes ahead and suggest that his 'raceyness' is a byproduct of his real programming, which is to get the result first and worry about racing after, just like MS. If Seb had held his hands up and said 'we pushed our luck' or said nothing, like Lewis did in 2011 when he was getting Massa'd every other race, then I would probably be pleasantly surprised. But his outburst for me confirms his motivations - results and stats, not the actual racing or race craft or belief of being the best - like Lewis. These guys would be as happy to win due to some freak regulation or lucky event than by honest alpha competition. Perhaps theres no German translation of the phrase - 'its the taking part thats important' Which is also the only thing that confirms Lewis' superiority over Alonso - I doubt Lewis would bareface insist on celebrating the Singapore 'win' where his TP+Team+teammate cheated by crashing but Alonso claims it as a fair win Nah, Seb is a very clever and fast brave driver with talent flowing out his ears, but he doesnt have the stoicism, resilience, intuition, instinct or racing intellect (hence race craft) of Lewis. I would actually love to see him up against Nico in the same kit. I suspect Nico would have him for lunch just by out qualifying him more than half the time.
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Post by racechick on Aug 30, 2015 11:03:12 GMT
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Post by Wß on Aug 30, 2015 16:07:19 GMT
Complain first, look for a scapegoat second, agree to talk it out by the next race and it's water under the bridge.
Under inflation would cause the tires to overheat. You're still ignoring the visual evidence between Vettel's tire and Grosjean's tire at the same spot. Why do you think there would be such a marked difference between the two?
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Post by RyRy on Aug 30, 2015 17:42:45 GMT
I am still confident it was either just a rare fault in the tyre (no ones fault) or something to do with the track either him taking too many kerbs or a kerb/part of track having a sharp section on it or because he had taken a lot of life out of his tyres, mixed in with the abuse of the kerbs he took a kerb too aggressively and made some damage.
I don't think it was just running on them too long and I don't think it was anything setup based like too much toe or camber.
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Post by Wß on Aug 31, 2015 0:50:25 GMT
I ran across an interesting line of thought on another forum; Catastrophic brake failure can be as tragic as a tire blowout, and we've seen a few of those over the last few years, Lewis Hamilton even had one of them but we don't hear the backlash to that as there is towards Pirelli. Carbon Industries, and Brembo don't have the same responsibility it would seem and there are no calls to demand a top to bottom investigation etc.
It's a new week and a new GP so my time to put a fork in it, but I thought it an interesting observation to leave the thread with.
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Post by Hammer on Aug 31, 2015 4:28:59 GMT
I am still confident it was either just a rare fault in the tyre (no ones fault) or something to do with the track either him taking too many kerbs or a kerb/part of track having a sharp section on it or because he had taken a lot of life out of his tyres, mixed in with the abuse of the kerbs he took a kerb too aggressively and made some damage. I don't think it was just running on them too long and I don't think it was anything setup based like too much toe or camber. Wouldn't this make it Pirelli's fault, for sh!t quality control? Rare faults shouldn't occur at this level, especially after all the crap they pulled last year.
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Post by racechick on Aug 31, 2015 7:38:44 GMT
I ran across an interesting line of thought on another forum; Catastrophic brake failure can be as tragic as a tire blowout, and we've seen a few of those over the last few years, Lewis Hamilton even had one of them but we don't hear the backlash to that as there is towards Pirelli. Carbon Industries, and Brembo don't have the same responsibility it would seem and there are no calls to demand a top to bottom investigation etc. It's a new week and a new GP so my time to put a fork in it, but I thought it an interesting observation to leave the thread with. I think there was a backlash (certainly to Lewis' Hokenheim) and Mercedes switched brake discs from CI to Brembo, even though Lewis prefers CI. ( I think it's that way round) . And there is the big difference. Normally, if the supplier provides a substandard component, the client will shop elsewhere. teams don't have that luxury with the tyres, they are forced to use Pirelli and Pirelli Are safe in the knowledge that teams have no other option. It is a situation ripe for exploiting margins and pandering to Bernie. You can bet there wouldn't be so many explosions and failures if there were more than one tyre supplier.
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Post by Wß on Aug 31, 2015 17:22:45 GMT
Well... we'll know soon enough. Let's see which way the evidence points but I hope it doesn't end badly for Vettel. I mean, worse than it already is.
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