|
Post by RyRy on Sept 3, 2015 15:43:02 GMT
Whatever your view is about swearing on TV, it was in no way the cause of the tyre blowouts, it was a result of them. And as Hammer says, unless its Lewis swearing it's not a deal. Track limits? I think all the drivers exceeded them during the race and they always will unless the rule is enforced. Ferrari DIDNT know the tyres were coming to the end of their life. The tyre readouts were fine and the remaining three tyres showed no wear. Why? Because they weren't coming to the end of their life. They've now found it was debris. Hence the U turn. The initial blame casting by Pirelli on to Ferrari and Seb claiming tyre wear was incorrect. I saw Vettel's ass sliding out every time they showed Grosjean attacking him, did you not see that? There's driving with two wheels over the line and then there's driving with four wheels waaay over the line. If you take a little poison you can survive, if you take lots of poison your chances of survival decrease. It's how antibiotics work. Hell, I can take a couple of Tylenol and feel better, but if I take too many my liver stops working and I die. Not sure why you're willingly conflating use and abuse. It was obvious by watching the car and by watching the timings that their tyres were coming to their end of their life, by end of life I don't mean that they are imenantly going to blow out but more so that they had no performance left and had a following 10~ laps of slow laps left. A lot of drivers did exceed track limits, Kvyat is one that was very obvious but he only started doing it when he was chasing a car down but watch the onboard feed from CanalPlus and lap after lap Vettel was abusing the limits the most, we've seen it in the past too where he does it a lot, Silverstone 2014 for example is one where it was complained about by Alonso during the race. Sebastian and the team have made a u-turn because ultimately they are wrong it wasn't Pirelli's fault. I actually forgot to just re-mention the Track is could be partly to blame because it has a chance that it might have been one of the new kerbs (they installed 15 or so new kerbs, removed one because they felt it was unsafe) but any of those kerbs might have been causing the punctures/damage and consdering how far off the track Vettel was going compared to Rosberg it could easily be the same part of the track/kerb damaging the tyres. They need to do a full inspection of all the kerbs prying them at the sides, if possible sucking them up in the middle somehow to see if something was lifting, bending or just something sharp. The fact that the tread of the tyre came off and the body of the tyre stayed together shows that one of pirelli's safety measures worked. With Vettel sliding across the track like WB mentioned mixed with the kerb abuse (pulling the tyre) could easily be the reason for the tyre failing by putting too much stresses on the tyre and ripping/tearing the bond between the tread and body of the tyre.
|
|
|
Post by racechick on Sept 3, 2015 15:56:26 GMT
Hang on here. Pirelli make a massive U turn and you're saying its Vettel and his team doing the Uturn because they were wrong? Pirelli were wrong. Wrong to bring unsuitable tyres. Wrong to advise Ferrari( and presumably other teams ) that 40 laps were ok. Wrong to sanction a one stop strategy ( assuming they'd brought tyres unfit for a one stop race) and wrong to blame tyre wear befor their investigation showed a cut in the tyre.
Of course Seb and Ferrari have been told to shut up. I predicted that yesterday in the link about Pirelli's u turn.
|
|
|
Post by Hammer on Sept 3, 2015 16:07:23 GMT
Oh come on!! Talk about clutching at straws, so what if Vettel ran the tyre ragged once in a while, or went slightly wide at Eau Rouge like almost everyone else did? Pirelli are talking about "down to 30% tread so MORE susceptible to damage", this is already a lame PR cover up which no one should fall for, why no mention about the "good for 40 lap" prediction? When I read their statement, it was so vague it mentioned almost nothing of actual substance. WB, those pics might show bending tyres or what not, but Pirelli did not address it after all their checking so it doesn't mean it contributed to the failure. We can only speculate on that. I was waiting for a solid reasoning from Pirelli about WHY the tyres on Rosberg and Vettels' car failed but they gave some crap about 'multiple cuts on tyres, some which hit the belt, some didn't' OK SO WHAT, how are these cuts happening?? Kerbs? Debris? If minor debris like SAND or standard circuit kerbs which have been there for years can cause this sort of damage to these crap tyres, maybe make them BELTS stronger! I'm pretty damn sure these tyres are designed to completely run out of grip before failing completely, but it DID NOT run out of grip since Vettel's final lap before the puncture was less than 0.5s slower than laps he did at 10/11 on his stint. Pirelli just can't admit the shitty tyre let go much sooner than it should have because of POOR CONSTRUCTION. Their prediction for wear rate looked quite good, the tyre should've lasted almost 40 laps before exploding since Vettel's times prove it. And of course Vettel and Ferrari are going to say 'lets move on', its 1 day till Monza practice for gods sake. Saying anything else will make them look like the old Ferrari - bigtime whiners who can't get over sh!t. Even if it is sh!t tyres they have to get over.
|
|
|
Post by CookinFlat6 on Sept 3, 2015 16:58:27 GMT
Its official - its not Pirellis fault at all, Pirelli could make tyres that last a whole race but FOM confirm requesting cliff tyres that are also safe What about Ferrari and Seb? Err hold on, its not Pirellis fault, Seb is now praising them, the 40 lap limit is irrelevant, there is no poor quality tyres, no unsafe tyres, only unsafe debris somewhere Seb drove his car at speed and with 30% tread left? It seems that those blaming Pirelli are suddenly left halfway down the river without paddles or swimsuits
|
|
|
Post by racechick on Sept 3, 2015 17:05:43 GMT
Now why would that be? Come on you know how this game works! IN WHAT SEEMS TO BE A PR INFLUENCED MOVE Your clue is right there.
|
|
|
Post by Wß on Sept 3, 2015 17:28:47 GMT
Well, that's settled. not quite the apology I was expecting, but I'm glad there's a high road still.
|
|
|
Post by CookinFlat6 on Sept 3, 2015 17:29:11 GMT
But but but, the guy who is at th center of this, the guy you lot have backed as having no responsibility for the blowout, has suddenly declared 'it was all a big mistake'
Surely its unthinkable that a driver who genuinely thinks Pirellis dodgy tyre almost cost him his life 2 weeks ago will not turn around and say 'I am happy with the same tyres for Monza, and Pirelli are doing things right and we need to work together'
Surely Seb is not a corrupt, easily bribed, immoral, spinless worm? He didnt seem that way after th blow out - why he was positievly rebelious and spoke his mind even to the point of swearing on daytime tv
hmmn, Im not sure what to think here, obviously theres been a fix of sorts, but the only one to completely capitulate is Seb, surely his supporters have to see they backed the wrong horse?
|
|
|
Post by Wß on Sept 3, 2015 17:44:50 GMT
I know you're still not on board RC, but when you look at this stat, it's difficult to explain it away;
Pirelli have made a ton of progress since Silverstone, but they're in the unenviable position to only be talked about when things don't go right. Did you even imagine they would go and count cuts on tires after events and keep the data?
|
|
|
Post by racechick on Sept 3, 2015 17:46:11 GMT
As I said. You know how this works. Love or hate Pirelli, F1 is stuck with them for the near future. So they can't afford drivers rubbishing them, particularly on safety grounds, in public. Pirelli's report was wet beyond measure but the FIA endorsed it because it has no choice. They then have a word in the ear of Seb / Ferrari. ' Tone it down guys, blah, blah , blah, promise, promise, threat , threat, bribe, bribe". This is the FIA and Ferrari. I can't believe you're falling for this whitewash!
|
|
|
Post by racechick on Sept 3, 2015 17:55:16 GMT
I know you're still not on board RC, but when you look at this stat, it's difficult to explain it away; Pirelli have made a ton of progress since Silverstone, but they're in the unenviable position to only be talked about when things don't go right. Did you even imagine they would go and count cuts on tires after events and keep the data? If they're counting cuts then it must be because there is a suspicion that their tyres aren't robust enough for the job. Those cuts were on all the cars not just Vettel's car. Which begs the question why were they so quick to accuse Vettel and Ferrai of doing too long a stint and the tyre suffering from wear? ( despite them having said it was all ok beforehand) The tyres had 63 cuts because they weren't up to the job at Spa.
|
|
|
Post by Hammer on Sept 3, 2015 17:56:00 GMT
Cookin, I'm kinda surprised you're buying Vettels words at face value this way....what's his alternative? "I refuse to race unless the tyres are changed"? Right, that's going to happen and I'm sure Ferrari will be thrilled to hear that!
|
|
|
Post by Wß on Sept 3, 2015 18:05:51 GMT
As I said. You know how this works. Love or hate Pirelli, F1 is stuck with them for the near future. So they can't afford drivers rubbishing them, particularly on safety grounds, in public. Pirelli's report was wet beyond measure but the FIA endorsed it because it has no choice. They then have a word in the ear of Seb / Ferrari. ' Tone it down guys, blah, blah , blah, promise, promise, threat , threat, bribe, bribe". This is the FIA and Ferrari. I can't believe you're falling for this whitewash! Come on. Whitewash? 13,748 slick tires have been used since the beginning of the year and two tires fail in a circuit where clearly debris was an issue and you still won't give them the benefit of the doubt? That's a 0.01% delamination failure rate in an entire year. We haven't spoken about Pirelli tires since Silverstone 2013, there's got to be a reason why here and why now. You're harsh to say the least.
|
|
|
Post by RyRy on Sept 3, 2015 18:34:14 GMT
If there was 63 cuts in the Spa tyres then it is NOT their fault at all, instead there's an obvious fault with the track (kerbing) which is the FIA and Track's responsibility.
|
|
|
Post by racechick on Sept 3, 2015 18:41:32 GMT
I'm harsh? Each one of those cuts was a potential failure. Luckily they only had two failures and there weren't injuries. There could have been bad injuries. Then all hell would have descended on Pirelli and the FIA. Especially since drivers were calling for reassurance in the drivers meeting before the race. And still we have this non response to a serious issue. You say there's been no tyre issues since Silverstone 2013, how do you know? Do Pirelli examine every single tyre that comes off every single car? I didn't think so. And since Silverstone 2013 drivers have had to pussy food round the track on these fragile tyres. There is no need for Pirelli to produce tyres that are so on the edge that they slip so easily into a dangerous situation.
|
|
|
Post by Wß on Sept 3, 2015 18:49:38 GMT
You really saying the Vettel was pussyfooting around Spa? But apparently since they count cuts on tires post events, they do look at every tire they've got the statistical data that shows the level of cuts.
...and the reason I know the there's been no tire issue since Silverstone of 2013 is because you haven't written an article on how bad the their tires were until Spa!
|
|
|
Post by racechick on Sept 3, 2015 19:47:53 GMT
I haven't written an article about tyres before because I'm not a tyre expert and can only respond to circumstances as they unfold, as I see them and as they are reported. Pirelli have given all sorts of excuses for the tyre failures at Spa, wear, debris, kerbs, abuse if track limits, stints too long , the unique track conditions, a combination of factors. The only thing they haven't blamed is the construction of their tyres. If they are so secure in their tyres why are they suggesting such a change in tyre pressures for Monza? Changes that leave drivers somewhat bewildered? AUTOSPORT understands Pirelli has suggested 22psi for the fronts and 21psi for the rears, compared to 20 and 18.5 respectively at Spa. It is believed the rise is not a reaction to the incidents at Spa but rather to recognise the unique pressures the Monza track presents. There was confusion over the exact increase in the Monza paddock on Thursday, as a number of drivers expected a rise of 5psi. HAMILTON: "In terms of putting the pressures up, I personally don't think it's the right way, but they might not do it anyway. "I don't think any of us have tried 5psi more because they are not designed to have 5psi more; they work in a range. "We will be moving out of the optimum range of the tyre, we'll be using a different part of the tyre, which means more wear, less grip. It's going to be a disaster. "So I hope they don't put 5psi more in. A couple is OK." BUTTON: "I'm happy that they've got limits. They're pretty scary limits. For every F1 team, we've never run tyres with this pressure before, or such low camber. It might throw up other things, so we've got to see what happens in testing tomorrow. I understand why they're doing it. I think we're all thankful that they are immediately changing something and it should be better, because you've got less movement of the casing sidewall. So hopefully it will help. But if [the problem] is cuts, pressures aren't going to make much difference." ALONSO: " They are always right, because they are the experts on their product. Nevertheless, to be in Formula 1 with the technology we have in our cars, to have these kinds of limits is quite strange. I agree they probably are a necessity. The first thing is safety." GROSJEAN: "It's probably a bit strong, but on the other hand, I think this year we have had enough drama in [motor]sport in general. We want to avoid anything else. On one side there are very strong limits; on the other side as long as there is no real fix it's better to go that way than having a problem. It's going to hurt everyone - some more than others." Read between the lines of the drivers PR speak and they're all saying WTF are they playing at! www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120606
|
|
|
Post by Wß on Sept 3, 2015 20:01:12 GMT
Really? I don't read that. What I do see is what I told you countless times and the pictures show that Ferrari were running on the low side of the tire pressure while Pirelli said that Mercedes was exemplary in their pressure and camber specs with Rosberg.
The compression portion of the picture I shared with you... that's what happens when there's not enough air in the tire. Wasn't visible on anyone's car but Vettel's. Maybe there's something to that and not a huge big conspiracy theory between FOM the FiA and Pirelli, just pointing out that Ferrari brought it onto themselves by being the black sheep on tire pressure, abuse and strategy.
I mean come on... Vettel wanted to pit and Ferrari said no, it wasn't to their strategy. I've asked you already, how many times have you yelled and screamed about McLaren leaving Lewis out when he asked to pit and the team refused. How is that any different?
|
|
|
Post by racechick on Sept 3, 2015 20:47:59 GMT
I know they siad Mercedes were exemplary with tyre management. So why are they having to up the pressure? To cover off any marginalities within the tyres? You don't know Ferrai were black sheep on tyre pressures,you're just guessing at that because you saw a squashy tyre. If it were only Ferrai that were at fault there would be no need to tell everyone to up pressure, they could just insist pressures they request are adhered to.
I know Vettel wanted to pit , but he wasn't running on a bald tyre like Lewis was, and even on a bald tyre lewis' didn't explode it just went slidey. And Ferrai didn't ignore the tyre manufacturers pleas to bring Vettel in, because there weren't any pleas from Pirelli, unlike when Lewis was left out. Two completely different scenarios.
|
|
|
Post by Wß on Sept 3, 2015 21:04:23 GMT
Tire pressure isn't an absolute, they provide a "range". Actually Pirelli provide a minimum pressure when the tire is cold and a minimum pressure when the tire is hot. (they also provide maximum pressure range but that's not an issue here) So by raising the minimum they force Ferrari out of the trick they were using for additional grip which clearly by the look of the tire was to be at the very low limit set by Pirelli. So it actually may not impact other teams at all if they were already not using the lower limits of the recommended range.
|
|
|
Post by RyRy on Sept 3, 2015 21:04:40 GMT
I'm harsh? Each one of those cuts was a potential failure. Luckily they only had two failures and there weren't injuries. There could have been bad injuries. Then all hell would have descended on Pirelli and the FIA. Especially since drivers were calling for reassurance in the drivers meeting before the race. And still we have this non response to a serious issue. You say there's been no tyre issues since Silverstone 2013, how do you know? Do Pirelli examine every single tyre that comes off every single car? I didn't think so. And since Silverstone 2013 drivers have had to pussy food round the track on these fragile tyres. There is no need for Pirelli to produce tyres that are so on the edge that they slip so easily into a dangerous situation. Yes, they do rigorous checks of the tyres! Each Tyre: - It's ran under an ultrasound, xray and digital photographs which are automatically analysed and analysed by a human to check density, construction, internal faults, full dimensions including weight. - It's pressure tested. - Hand inspection for any faults. Any faulty tyre regardless of how small is melted down to start a fresh. Batch Testing - From each batch they produce a set of tyres is tested as follows: - Heat testing - Race simulation on actual track surfaces (using a computer, - Load testing (4x the load that an F1 car can produce - Speed testing (400kph) - Camber angle tested - Toe angle tested They apparently added more tests after the Silverstone blow out in 2013. The only video I can find is a 2011 one which is far outdated and it doesn't mention about the Pirelli car they use that is also used to test tyres.
|
|