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Post by CookinFlat6 on Aug 31, 2015 1:04:24 GMT
Ok So it looks like RBR are putting all their eggs into swapping to Merc next year. Renault is trying to do what Merc did to McLaren, by cutting out the middleman and employing the drivers and engineers themselves.
On one hand it sounds like a bust - 2 Austrian factions who hate each other and have enjoyed lots of public spats and sniping from day one. The marketing firm Mateshits/Helmet (sometimes labelled as fizzy drinks sellers) vs the real winners and F1 aristocrats Niki/Toto. There is no way AMG would want to help out RBR, but AMG is not Stuttgart Merc. The F1 team is really Merc supplying engines to a couple of F1 entrepreneurs they control at board level.
So for Stuttgart, supplying engines to the winners is pretty much their business. If the team are also Merc labelled instead of called McLaren or Red Bull or Brawn is just the icing on the cake in the scheme of things to one of the biggest manufacturers of cars to everyone from grannies to teenagers. Its fairly obvious that supplying RBR is a win win for the business development crowd at Stuttgart. They have RBR over a barrel and can cut a deal that assures much more exposure from wins than Renault got from RBR. Merc can also prevent RBR from public handbags and weeping to the press when they receive updates last and have a lesser level of help and info than Williams - like Mclaren when they were on the shit list.
For Niki and Toto, once they put aside their feelings and ego should actually jump up and cheer their good fortune. Instead of having RBR outside the tent trying to piss in, they now have RBR inside the tent with their willies strategically aimed towards Ferrari. The trick would be to let RBR have a bit of success, look good for sponsors etc, and make sure they stay on the shit list.
The only risk Toto and Niki face is Merc someday deciding to back RBR instead of fund their own team. And somehow I doubt Mateshits will ever be street smart enough to play that game.
Once Merc are supplying RBR, who become very competitive and a bigger challenge than Williams or Ferrari, but somehow are always lacking that extra bit that is needed to beat Hamilton on merit, and is barely enough to swap occasional 2nd/3rd with Rosberg, once this is the case then Merc own F1 and can make up the rules as they see fit. Merc will be the team Ferrari always tried to be, but with complete control of all the strategy group and teams.
Ferrari/Haas will get a few slaps as they adjust to the new reality, and with Bernie becoming more senile day by day, the Merc/RBR/Williams gang will be able to replace him with anyone they choose, as well as his lacky Whiting. The only other teams with any say not on Merc favours will be McLaren. Renault will have 'historical' status but only one vote.
So the Merc gang(most of the teams) vs McLaren and Renault
Merc will be looking at ways to screw RBR every which way but still provide engines, Horner aint gonna be making any outbursts about his engine supplier thats for sure
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Post by Wß on Aug 31, 2015 1:14:49 GMT
I'm not entirely sure this is a done deal. From an REd Bull perspective, they'd be better served by reinforcing Honda as another customer (premium, co-works) and taking whatever they can gain next year with a foundation to 2017.
Let's see how this all pans out.
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Post by racechick on Aug 31, 2015 7:58:29 GMT
Cookie, you make that prospect sound SO sexy! I don't think its a done deal but with the more and more public parting of the ways between Renault and RBR, the more it looks a deal. I'd heard that both Ferrari and Mercedes had agreed to supply RBR if RBR wanted their engines. mercedes being much less keen about it initially but warming to it ( Maybe Stuttgart as you suggested Cookie?) I remember hearing Toto say something along the lines of ...we'll help if we're needed, but RBR are our competitors. Nice phrasing Toto...we'll help you out. I wonder what Christian will find to whinge about when/ if he gets that engine? Not much left. WB I can't see RBR choosing a Honda engine right now. They're moaning like mad about Renault and Honda are a whole lot further back, while Merc has its cars all at the front. One thought I had was will they be able to supply that many teams? But I guess they're loosing Lotus, so that gives them a place. Some juicy prospects if it happens. It will certainly show how good those chasis are relative to each other when they both have the same engine. Whichever one comes out as having the best chassis, it will certainly close the gap and I expect Nico will lose out in that situation. The luxury of still finishing second with a defecit of half a second in quali to your tem mate will be gone. Alonso anyone? Alonso to try desperately to jump into a Merc powered RBR?
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Post by CookinFlat6 on Aug 31, 2015 15:34:45 GMT
Its definitely not a done deal but in the scheme of things its exactly what the rules are meant to achieve as the Hybrid tech evolves - at some point in the future there will be engine parity, and in the meantime the leading engine maker will have a pick of customers and the lamer makers will go out of business or improve.
It happened in the V8 era, except Merc didnt have there own team, they had an exclusive with McLaren, but Renault and Ferrari were allowed to catch up (renault even improved). So this time round Ferrari, Renault and Honda will have no real customers whislt they are the lamer makers. At best they will power their own teams or leave like Cosworth did
Therefore Merc AMG are in the strongest position where they can exert influence over their customers especially if that customer doesnt have the option of pretending to be a factory team for an engine maker. Renault Honda and Ferrari will actually hold back their works teams by not providing the industry leading engine, and Merc can hold back anyone else by providing the engine with various levels of 'favour'
It would also of course be much easier for Merc to create much closer racing, because they would have all the data on RBR and Williams.
And they would share in every single bit of publicity both teams generate from F1
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Post by CookinFlat6 on Aug 31, 2015 18:03:48 GMT
Interesting angle from Joe Saward which lines up with WBs above As Audi boss Ulrich has been banned from the DTM pitwall for his 'push him off' remarks, JS finds a way for Audi to come in (the 360th new angle) My only concern is that if you swap the name Audi for Honda and turn the date back to 2012 then it would b the same, big firm, couldnt possibly get it wrong, in less than 2 years, what could go wrong?
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Post by Wß on Aug 31, 2015 18:16:56 GMT
Well, that was my thought process. But the very reason for the engine switch was to lure manufacturers such as Audi into the sport. Honda got it wrong but Honda didn't own an F1 team in this case, my hope would be that Audi fix mistake number one now that it's on the cheap. You'd be amazed as to how much you can learn from seen what's been done by others. I'm sure that Audi/VW has a base design probably something that Honda didn't have given their troubles.
I'm not sure what's what but I'm glad that we're able to talk about the possibilities. Don't recall who it was that said it but untill there's half a dozen years of stability with an engine program the focus is not going to switch back towards aero as the primary thing to get a WCC title for a team.
Advantage werks teams not fizzy drinks teams.
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Post by RyRy on Aug 31, 2015 21:40:46 GMT
Red Bull said that they'll be getting a "big" update at Sochi and if their performance doesn't improve at that track with the new Engine upgrades then they'll be ending their contract with Renault.
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Post by CookinFlat6 on Aug 31, 2015 22:13:50 GMT
Yup Ry, obviously Renault have been holding back and rubbing RBRS face in it, and RBR have drawn a line in the sand - 'fess up or we are leaving in 2016 and Merc will be persuaded to provide us with engines' - to which Renault are saying 'leave in 2016 and we sue your ass, however we do have a big update coming out so lets all calm down' Renault need to buy Lotus/F!/whoever and be back on the grid in 2017 not 2016, 2016 they would be Renault Mercedes etc.
Thats the only leverage RBR have, Renault are obviously holding back on token spend to spite RBR and Spa result for RBR and STR indicates that the French engine maker might actually be preparing to go on the offensive for the first time ever in the engine wars
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Post by CookinFlat6 on Sept 1, 2015 13:33:43 GMT
Interesting words from Toto, who is usually a paragon of honesty, this could be for Stuttgarts ears
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Post by Wß on Sept 1, 2015 13:38:23 GMT
This is getting curioser and curioser.
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Post by CookinFlat6 on Sept 1, 2015 15:49:14 GMT
Especially as there are rumours of an imminent Merc Manor engine deal - which if cut now would completely remove Bernie pressure to supply RBR as they would be full up with the 4 customers that was part of the original deal they signed up for along with all the Hybrid regulations So it could be a case of publically promise to supply RBR but 'be forced' to confirm a replacement for Lotus should they be off. If they have a pre deal with Manor then once Lotus ask to join Renault, there will be no space for RBR, who could only announce their leaving Renault after Renault buy a works team - giving RBR the excuse to break the contract Should be very entertaining in the next few weeks, for us, not for RBR
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Post by Wß on Sept 1, 2015 15:51:56 GMT
ugh, a Mannor F1 with a Mercedes engine could give McLaren a hard time.
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Post by Liam Catterson on Sept 1, 2015 19:02:05 GMT
Alonso anyone? Alonso to try desperately to jump into a Merc powered RBR? Alonso vs McLaren Part 2 if that is the case. Ron ain't going to let him out so easy out of his contract and even then, McHonda may be competitive... (okay, I am just dying of laughter typing that, McLaren Honda...competitive??? Stop it)or Merc Bull might be behind once again. Besides, they are always going to be behind Mercs if they choose to have their engines.
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Post by CookinFlat6 on Sept 1, 2015 20:06:32 GMT
The thing is that Alonsos argument for staying at McHonda is now unravelling, as its clear that McLaren are not an integrated works team in the spirit that Merc or Ferrari are. Only on paper are they similar to Merc. In reality McLaren are just a favoured sole customer.
the same issue that scuppered the RBR Renault partnership is obviously manifesting with McLaren Honda. They are 2 seperate entities with seperate cultures, locations, objectives and most important, seperate balance sheets. Whereas Merc engines and chassis were planned, budgetted, owned and built together.
So McLaren have a size zero chassis and Honda have an engine that just aint fitting properly or breathing correctly within the chassis. So there is no big benefit in the scale Alonso envisaged. Even Ferrari started off underestimating this level of integration and had to completely change the way both sides integrated. And Renault have come to the same conclusion hence looking to buy (control and integrate completely) a chassis maker.
Ron and Alonso are in a 3 tier grid, tier 1 is the fully integrated Merc and Ferrari, tier 2 is the integrated partnership McHonda and RBR Renault, tier 3 are the customers. Williams are in probably the best bang per bucks scenario - they have the lowest costs and just pay for the best engine, they wont beat the tier 1 guys ever but they will give a bloody nose to the tier 2 guys whilst spending much less money
So Alonso must be realising that Merc and Ferrari wont have him and therefore his best bet will be the tier 3 guys where he can at least hope to close the customer/works team gap by the 3/10s or whatever he reckons he brings
It would be a long shot for McHonda to overcome Merc in the next few years now its obvious they miscalculated and effectively have to start again next year
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lh44jb
Junior Member
Posts: 13
Likes: 8
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Post by lh44jb on Sept 3, 2015 9:39:15 GMT
The Mercedes race team will hate having to give RBR Mercedes engines. But the big bosses will probably only see the euros flowing in from its association with red bull and there younger audience. Huge marketing prospect to be had!
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Post by RyRy on Sept 3, 2015 16:09:09 GMT
The Mercedes race team will hate having to give RBR Mercedes engines. But the big bosses will probably only see the euros flowing in from its association with red bull and there younger audience. Huge marketing prospect to be had! Im sure the big bosses will realise that if RBR get the merc engine and school Mercedes then that is a huge negative for their PR. While they can win with Mercedes they shouldn't want to provide engines to RBR, as soon as they can't win or their Engine/Aero advantage is equaled by other teams then that would be the time for getting RBR on board as they'll always be technically a winning team.
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Post by CookinFlat6 on Sept 3, 2015 16:45:27 GMT
As if by magic, it appears that Merc are making a statement here to AMG and their customers, current and prospective Statement = 'do you think we are stupid enough to not have an inbuilt, legal and stupendous advantage over our customer teams, even though we give them the same engine as per the rules?' www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120601?
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Post by racechick on Sept 3, 2015 17:14:40 GMT
They've been clever with their links with Petronas from the outset. I remember being told that the fuel/ pile suppliers weren't important, bu they are. And it sounds like more proof of this is on the way. Looks like they're boxing very clever. I hope they are.
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Post by Frontrunner on Sept 4, 2015 11:49:17 GMT
As long as Ricciardo is at Red Bull, I'm all for the Red Bull-Mercedes dream to come true, I'm probably the only person on this whole forum that would love to see it happen.
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Post by racechick on Sept 4, 2015 11:54:37 GMT
I wouldn't be overly upset by it. lewis has it a bit too easy. I like him fighting for it. I'd also like someone getting between him and Nico now and then.....which shouldn't be that difficult with a half second gap.
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