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BREXIT
Jul 3, 2016 0:22:36 GMT
Post by racechick on Jul 3, 2016 0:22:36 GMT
No. Not even British.
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BREXIT
Jul 3, 2016 0:37:37 GMT
Post by CookinFlat6 on Jul 3, 2016 0:37:37 GMT
Not British, not biased due to a recent choosing of a referendum option - yet presents all the facts.
Thats all we really want - facts - especially as half of us where fed non facts and actually fell for it
Can you point to any lies in that article? along the lines of 350 mill a week immediately sent to the NHS?
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BREXIT
Jul 3, 2016 1:02:34 GMT
Post by racechick on Jul 3, 2016 1:02:34 GMT
That's not what was said. What's was said was 350 mil would be under our control. Half of that comes back and the communities that receive it have to be protected. After that, money would be available for the NHS. Before I start on the American article. Can you explain the lies of the emergency budget that Osborne threatened? Can you explain the threatened war from Cameron? Ok the article. It quotes EU officials. So that's biased for a start. Malstrom is EU so it's obvious what tack she's going to take. Junker is EU, the president nobody wanted but due to lack of democracy and 'favours' , back room deals and corruption he got the job. www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/27/eu-democratic-bandwagon-juncker-president-wanted Yes trade deals take ages to negotiate IN THE EU. But we're getting oxut. And since when did EU rules matter a damn to the power brokers? They break them constantly when it suits them. We are getting out from a corrupt undemocratic bunch of fedralist elitists. It's a gravy train. The looser Kinnocks has made millions from it. Millions of taxpayers money. Millions from the people he was supposed to be representing and helping, the working class , ' the thicko's ' who had finally had enough. Gravy train www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/campaign-highlights-kinnocks-10m-eu-2100178People who voted leave didn't expect it to be easy, but they placed freedom from Brussels above other considerations. Already trade deals are being proposed from places we weren't allowed to trade with because of the EU. Countries queuing up to strike a deal with a newly liberated UK. heatst.com/uk/11-countries-gearing-up-to-strike-trade-deals-with-britain/USA- 'back of the queue' comments now replaced with ' like minded' , more open to trade than other member EU states. ICELAND- Olafur Ragnar Grimsson, Iceland’s president, said the UK can join a “triangle” of non-EU countries, including Greenland, Iceland, Norway and the Faroe Islands in the European Free Trade Area (EFTA). INDIA - bean trying NINE YEARS! to get trade deal with EU, will seek opportunities with UK. GERMNAY- Germany sells more cars to the UK than to any other country. German Finance Ministry advised the EU to enter into negotiations aiming at making the UK an “associated partner country” of the trade block. NEW ZEALAND AND AUSTRALIA - New Zealand First party leader Winston Peters said “a trade deal with the UK is an absolute priority” and “New Zealand must be the first country in the queue for a trade deal with a liberated United Kingdom.” Turnbull suggests NZ and Australia team up to strike deal with UK. GHANA - has EU deal but keen to pursue one with UK to avoid penalties of EU common agricultural policy. CANADA- cautious but wants to continue ties MEXICO- already has a draft trade agreement ready SWITZERLAND- would support UK joining EFTA SOUTH KOREA- contacted government to begin bilateral trade talks asap. So that's looking pretty positive. The article used the following for sources...... The EU Commission Politico Iceland Monitor FInancial Times SKy News F.World ( Australian site) ABC ( Australian site) RadioNZ Pulse.com The Independent PM of Canada (news site)
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BREXIT
Jul 3, 2016 1:23:20 GMT
Post by CookinFlat6 on Jul 3, 2016 1:23:20 GMT
Yikes, you gotta be shitting me!! Thats what I mean about the passion of the brexiteers overcoming any brains or historical knowledge It takes a lot of negotiation and ime to strike trade deals outside straight WTO ones. You and others dont have a clue - anyone can trade with anyone under WTO rules - any country can buy and sell from any other. We are taklking about 'special' deals - where both countries go beyond mere buy/sell, into coooperation, workers moving, no tariffs etc Those countries you listed? It will take years to cut the same type of deals UsA - www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3671871/We-tried-warn-ambassador-says-Britain-queue-trans-Atlantic-trade-deal.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490Switzerland? do you even know what the EFTA means? Swiss have just rejected the terms that guarantee free movement from the EU - to enter such an arrangement with EU means free movement of people or accepting Brussels law or paying - thats what the fascists voted against So we already deal with Swiss thru EU, you are saying we will now cut a separate deal to have the same? Dumb as shit Iceland etc - Christ they are warning us not to do the same - they have to pay the eu and accept its laws and free movement but have no say - worse than we have now and the population is about 0.000001 of Europe - FAIL India - ok so we gonna cut a special deal with India and that will involve no visa access for workers in both countries as well as other ties. Yup your 'passionate' make Britain British brexiteers are gonna jump in and sign up for Indians not needing visas etc hahahaha New Zealand Australia? Christ we have more to worry from their imports than they do from our exports Thats the point - the whole brexiteers are as thick as bricks, all romance and patriotism but zero idea of how the real world works. So lets not trade with Germany anymore (or lets do it under worse terms) and instead trade with new zealand and iceland - hahahaha Canada - cautious? haha, its taken years and years to even draft anything half way there, according to the fascists we simply leave EU today and sign up tomorrow with everyone else? It takes a while and in the meantime we wont have ANY special arrangements cos they were all done by EU in last 40 years Christ, the only thing worse than the idiots who fell for Farage and co is the idiots who even noe continue to cling on to a false flag EVERYONE WOULD LEAVE EUROPE - thats not the point, the point is, its too massive to even contemplate - thats why ther brexit liars have all turned out to be frauds yet the fascists and thickos still think the world runs along the lines of a chipshop
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BREXIT
Jul 3, 2016 1:54:32 GMT
Post by CookinFlat6 on Jul 3, 2016 1:54:32 GMT
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BREXIT
Jul 3, 2016 2:00:20 GMT
Post by CookinFlat6 on Jul 3, 2016 2:00:20 GMT
Yes trade deals take ages to negotiate IN THE EU. But we're getting oxut. And since when did EU rules matter a damn to the power brokers? They break them constantly when it suits them. We are getting out from a corrupt undemocratic bunch of fedralist elitists. It's a gravy train. The looser Kinnocks has made millions from it. Millions of taxpayers money. Millions from the people he was supposed to be representing and helping, the working class , ' the thicko's ' who had finally had enough. But hold on, if the Eu is so bad, WHY IS THE SUN OFFERING TERMS TO REMAIN? hahaha So all those noble brexit voters are being told that they are dumbos who served their purpose but that the EU isnt all evil afterall and we just wanted to deal lol
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BREXIT
Jul 3, 2016 5:24:54 GMT
Post by dogued on Jul 3, 2016 5:24:54 GMT
I believe the term "peacocking" fits when it comes to Europe right now. The flashy, loud "they wanted out, get them out" and "Leave, then we'll talk" style of comments are great sound bytes for the press and cover up and nervous feelings towards the future from Europe. Leave or Remain, whatever the way the vote went, it's done now. There is actually NO rush at all to put it in place. European politicians can have all the press conferences and meetings they want. Until the UK formally triggers Article 50, there is nothing they can do. The UK can have "informal" talks with as many countries as they want, as long as they aren't "formal trade negotiations", EU has nothing to say and their own EU laws prevent them from being prejudice or harming UK interests during that period.
What I would be more worried about if I was a European Leader, is the reaction the BREXIT vote might have in my own country. The world has seen the people of the UK rise up and say "F-OFF" (actual voting trends and personal thoughts aside, this is what international papers are saying), it's shown them that change can happen. Now, many EU countries are already facing a rise in "right wing" parties and nationalistic trends prior to this vote, it could have an effect when elections roll around. The first we'll see of this is Austria who have just had their election declared void and will return to the polls in September. The "voided" election saw the far right Freedom Party come within 30k votes of winning power, their leader is very excited about BREXIT boosting that vote. In Germany, Merkel may very well see herself out of a job next year as her "pro-immigration" stance is falling more out of favour. France and Italy both have far right parties pushing the fringes of power, gaining momentum even before BREXIT and faster still now it's done.
These doom and gloom articles are all based on one thing: CURRENT EU Leaders and MEP's thoughts and feelings. In 2-3 years time, we could have a table of Farage-clones from around the continent, each happy to eek out their own slice of trade pie, each happy to curtail immigration laws, each happy to make any deal with the UK that would benefit their own country.
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BREXIT
Jul 3, 2016 8:43:47 GMT
Post by racechick on Jul 3, 2016 8:43:47 GMT
CookinFlat6 since when did the Sun newspaper become your 'go to' source? I don't give a damn what the Sun say either now or during the campaign. The EU is unreformable. We tried that. We cannot compare ourselves within the EU to Germany. The EU has 50% youth unemployment. There is unrest all across the EU. Britain voted out. That should be honoured. No back tracking. People like Kinnock, Hezzletine and Blair should stop talking Britain down. Read again this paragraph you quoted. What it's ACTUALlY saying is that the EU cannot afford to exclude Britain from the single market............. "Beyond the diehard zealots, few people in Britain want our economy cut off from the single market given how important it is to our trade and notably the crucial financial services industry. And while European political classes know that ejecting the UK from the biggest internal market in the world is the most powerful and punitive negotiating card they hold, European industry does not want unnecessary barriers to accessing Britain’s market. Given the size of the British economy, access to the single market should be a very achievable ambition and is an early assumption during the phoney war through which we are currently living."
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BREXIT
Jul 3, 2016 9:41:47 GMT
Post by CookinFlat6 on Jul 3, 2016 9:41:47 GMT
Yup thats the point exactly. The zealots who incited 51% to vote for something too complex for the countries leaders to solve for 40 years - did so on the promise of leaving the corrupt and nasty EU for good because of its immigration laws
The EU is saying and has always said there is no access to the open market without free movement of people.
So either Britain has access to open market with the old open borders and with no say anymore in the laws or we do what the Brexit campaign was about - LEAVE or we string it out hoping the whole EU collapses by the time we have to actually leave
According to Brexit campaign, the EU is so corrupt and bad that we are better off not having access to the open market in return for sovereign rights and control of our borders - thats what people voted for
Except now the same people are talking about not immediately leaving the rotten edifice and even continuing to accept their rotten laws if they could just be kind enough to change one or two
The reason for Germany, France, Britain, Poland collaborating on Europe goes beyond corrupt EU officials fiddling expenses and lies in the aftermath of WW2. the EU is mostly about Germany and the UK handing over control of Europe to Germany and getting muscled out of Financial services and other things beyond the understanding of the average thicko on the street who doesn understand how important it is to have the financial center here and not in Frankfurt
So now the vote is done no one will pull the trigger? and the next PM will be someone who wanted to remain.
The only question is this - who really still wants to leave the open market just so we can halt immigration from Europe (EU immigration is 50% of total) and return to the greatness of the 70s? Noone but the thickos who dont get it.
Unless the whole EU project combusts we will have handed over to Germany what a whole generation went to war to prevent, and instead of being on the inside trying to force change we will be on the outside sneering at bureaucrats. No one cares about the smaller countries leaving (they wont because they gain), but the UK is a different story
The UK should have dominated Brussels and taken a strong leadership role but for 40 years its been dithering and sneering, but now the trigger has been pulled yet hasnt and wont be. The only hope is the EU fails in the sense of Germany and France also becoming single countries again
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BREXIT
Jul 3, 2016 9:50:26 GMT
Post by racechick on Jul 3, 2016 9:50:26 GMT
You can't take that sentence you quote out of context. It goes on to say is.......
"Given the size of the British economy, access to the single market should be a very achievable ambition and is an early assumption during the phoney war through which we are currently living."
ACCESS SHOULD BE VERY ACHIEVABLE.
It is not in our interest to invoke article 50 immediately. That's pretty much agreed. Neither should it be left too long. It will be done in the Autumn when there's a new PM.
It's not just about immigration. Most leavers didn't site immigration as their primary concern.
And calling people 'thicko's ' because you don't like the result is infantile and achieves nothing.
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BREXIT
Jul 3, 2016 9:58:27 GMT
Post by CookinFlat6 on Jul 3, 2016 9:58:27 GMT
Hold on why would you still want access to something so corrupt and rotten - if that was the reason for leaving and not immigration? So the SUn is now saying the EU is disgusting and corrupt but we want to continue having access because they will allow us access yet allow us to prevent access from other members
Is their a better word than thickos for those who vote for something that is unworkable - this was a protest vote from those that wanted to be heard, now its happened, the real crime would be continuing to push the lies after it became clear there is no plan or leadership - beyond hoping the EU collapses
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BREXIT
Jul 3, 2016 10:09:33 GMT
Post by racechick on Jul 3, 2016 10:09:33 GMT
The Sun is still saying what it said when you first quoted it, you just misinterpreted what it said.
Why would we want access to the European market? Do you really need to ask that question? Because it's in our and their interest for reasons of trade.
What is not in our interest is closer and closer political alliance and loss of sovereignty to a non democratic self serving corrupt fedralist elitist club.
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BREXIT
Jul 3, 2016 10:24:36 GMT
Post by CookinFlat6 on Jul 3, 2016 10:24:36 GMT
Why would we want access to the European market? Do you really need to ask that question? Because it's in our and their interest for reasons of trade We dont want access because it comes with conditions - thats what the exiters said, we can get back 350mill and give it to the NHS, The exit campaign that was voted for was not to have access anymore but to go it alone with new deals with Korea and India We leave and then we negotiate a new trade deal with EU, along the lines Switzerland - open borders/no say at all or along 'new lines' Those new lines are now sounding like continuing to accept the rules of that rotten club And you dont see the irony?
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BREXIT
Jul 3, 2016 10:40:41 GMT
Post by Hammer on Jul 3, 2016 10:40:41 GMT
Loving the debate you two, as a neutral nobody I'm learning a lot from both sides KEEP GOING WOOHOO!!!! You both rock!
#keepthepeace
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BREXIT
Jul 3, 2016 10:41:35 GMT
Post by racechick on Jul 3, 2016 10:41:35 GMT
I've already answered the 350mil question when you posed it earlier. No point keep going over the same ground. You didn't answer the 'there'll be a war' lie, and the ' there'll be a punishment budget' lie. But let's leave that.
Exit didn't vote to not have access. It voted to have control. Control to make other deals elsewhere and control to make its own decisions generally. Within that remit the UK will work to have some sort of trade access to the block without free movement of people. We buy more from them than they buy from us. In both our interests to make a deal as you pointed out in your Sun quote
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BREXIT
Jul 3, 2016 11:04:11 GMT
Post by CookinFlat6 on Jul 3, 2016 11:04:11 GMT
What gets me is the simplistic viewpoints for such a complex issue.
'there will be war' lie? some expected a war to break out in Europe right after the vote? Its a valid worry that collapse of the EU could lead to warring European countries down the line - part of the main reason for European unity that some are not able to comprehend - its been so long since Europe warred with itself that people have become complacent and greedy, and for them 'corrupt' officials are more worrying than countries without common markets clashing over resources
No punishment budget? the chancellor has completely abandoned his multi year program for getting the economy under control - thats even worse than more austerity, there is no more austerity and the Tories can now spend even more 'trying to prepare for brexit' meaning we are heading deeper into trouble
Trade access without movement of people? sure, thats gonna help the LONDON FinanciaL services industries who have carried this country for decades. Lets have a trade agreement that allows us to become unattractive to finance - let the City all leave, get those from the countryside into London to replace them and buy properties and employ people
Yup lets get a deal from Europe that allows us to block people yet allows us to keep the benefits that make us the financial leader in Europe
This is why the young and London voted stay and the ones out of touch stuck in the fields voted leave - they dont understand what could be lost - not immediately but over the next couple years as everything changes
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BREXIT
Jul 3, 2016 11:41:16 GMT
Post by racechick on Jul 3, 2016 11:41:16 GMT
Only 30 odd percent of the young (18-24 yr olds) voted to remain in the EU. The rest either voted exit or couldn't be bothered to vote at all.
There won't be no movement of people. There will be regulated movement of people based on what the country needs rather than the shambolic mess we have at the moment.
We need to do our utmost to protect the city and financial services, but it isn't all about London, that elitist attitude is why half the country, particularly the northern powerhouse, that did plenty to make this country what it is, feel completely disenfranchised.
There was no way in hell the chancellor was ever going to balance the books by 2020. Blaming Brexit for not doing so is deceitful and those believing that are naive to say the least.
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Post by Hammer on Jul 3, 2016 15:13:00 GMT
If you know what I mean
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BREXIT
Jul 3, 2016 15:14:38 GMT
Post by racechick on Jul 3, 2016 15:14:38 GMT
Lol. It's lookin that way!
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BREXIT
Jul 4, 2016 11:08:16 GMT
Post by CookinFlat6 on Jul 4, 2016 11:08:16 GMT
And calling people 'thicko's ' because you don't like the result is infantile and achieves nothing.
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