|
Post by dogued on May 27, 2016 5:18:49 GMT
McLaren May Drop Button For Vandoorne in 2017It's very logical. So if the mighty Button is to find a seat for 2017, where oh where could he go? Seats available for 2017 at the moment: Merceded (Rosberg) Williams (Massa) Ferrari (Raikkonen) Torro Rosso (Sainz) Renault (Both Seats) Manor (Both Seats) Unknown Contract Length: Haas (Both drivers) Sauber (Both drivers) Force India (Perez) Now, Force India have yet to sign an engine contract for 2017... seeing as it'll be the first year Honda are allowed to sign a second team (as per the agreement with Ron Dennis), could we see a Button/Honda double deal at Force India?
|
|
|
Post by racechick on May 27, 2016 6:45:25 GMT
dogued, before I answer your post, can you put my mind at rest on the following......... Are you happy to have your views challenged? Can you hold your own in 'strong debate' ? Do you take 'discussions' personally? Do you sulk? Will you still like coming here, and post things if you hate what I write? .....and other stuff like that.
|
|
|
Post by Wß on May 27, 2016 10:33:11 GMT
I think he should go and try to find the guys who gassed him and his friends, broke into his hotel room and stole Jessica's very expensive wedding ring. You know the Jessica he dumped a couple of months later. It's amazing to me how the British media gives this champion a free pass but the black guy, is the one that's off the rails in his personal life.
|
|
|
Post by CookinFlat6 on May 27, 2016 18:50:30 GMT
McLaren May Drop Button For Vandoorne in 2017It's very logical. So if the mighty Button is to find a seat for 2017, where oh where could he go? Seats available for 2017 at the moment: Merceded (Rosberg) Williams (Massa) Ferrari (Raikkonen) Torro Rosso (Sainz) Renault (Both Seats) Manor (Both Seats) Unknown Contract Length: Haas (Both drivers) Sauber (Both drivers) Force India (Perez) Now, Force India have yet to sign an engine contract for 2017... seeing as it'll be the first year Honda are allowed to sign a second team (as per the agreement with Ron Dennis), could we see a Button/Honda double deal at Force India? Ok, lets look at this logically and without notions of romance, nostalgia, fairness and largesse Where could Jenson go for 2017? One of the 2 oldest drivers and one of the top 5 earners with proven commercial appeal amongst a disturbed and confirmed older F1 watching market - He aint no playstation, twitter or social media phenom, theres no future generation or new crowd he will draw - therefore his commercial appeal lies with tradition and the past - the double diffuser WDC, the authentic English package Lets however look at F1s current context and try and identify a possible win/win for team and driver Merceded (Rosberg) This team already ditched Button as Brawn, and Jenson sued spiritual leader Brawn for his F1 car. Rosberg is clearly faster, German, and was actually Buttons replacement back in 2010. No chance with Werhlein and even Ocon better logic Williams (Massa) This is the team he stitched up good and proper. Given a chance by Sir Frank when he was not ready, rejected Sir Frank when Frank called in the favour. Sir Frank made a point of going to court to get paid compensation when he could have easily let Jenson walk. Since then, for example 2008 when Jenson was close to unemployed before Brawn cut a deal with departing Honda, Sir Frank has not once mentioned Button as a target. Also Button has no financing or sponsors, Santander arrived at Mac with Alonso, stayed with Lewis, and stayed in a much reduced profile with Jenson. Massa would only be replaced by a pay driver or academy driver like Lynn. No way would Williams swap Massa for an older Button - especially one rejected by Williams' old nemesis - big Ron Who realy thinks Sir Frank is the type of TP who will re-employ and ex driver just for the romance of allowing said driver to retire where he started (clue - he sacked Damon Hill after winning a WDC) No chance ever - ill eat my hat on youtube if this happens Ferrari (Raikkonen) Why swap Kimi (who is 10x more popular) for a Button that is not in the same league as Seb? Ferrari have had even better opportunities to sign Button and never did, re-signing Kimi etc. Ferrari tend to sign expensive drivers at the top of their game. Button's claim to be top of his game - the first 6 races in 2009 was 7 years ago - forget it Torro Rosso (Sainz) Anyone thinking the firm that produced Seb, Ric, Sainz from its academy, and the only driver not from the academy was the 17 yr old Max - thinking this firm will employ Button for Sainz will be on mushrooms Renault (Both Seats) The Enstone team is basically the same one that sacked him after a year for Alonso. They have a paying young Englishman in Palmer, are after pay drivers and have no need of the same expensive driver that their current leader Magnussen matched as a rookie Manor (Both Seats) Couldnt afford to pay him. Even if Jenson offered his services for free, at the back of the grid that would just be wasting an opportunity to raise cash from rich kids Unknown Contract Length: Haas (Both drivers) No chance of replacing RoGro - would be bad pr for Haas, Gut is funded by Ferrari - so NoGo Sauber (Both drivers) they cant afford to take Jenson even for free Now, Force India have yet to sign an engine contract for 2017... seeing as it'll be the first year Honda are allowed to sign a second team (as per the agreement with Ron Dennis), could we see a Button/Honda double deal at Force India? Why would Honda make Jenson a factor in giving an engine deal? If they wanted him they would keep him at Mclaren. If anything it would be SVD. However Ron just said SVD is going nowhere, and SVD said unless he gets a McLaren seat he is off in 2017 So the conclusion is that Button screwed up by not quitting last year and taking the top gear or BBC job. Because now, like his 'clever' contract negotiations, he has tried to be too clever and might have ended up as the big loser again when cards are dealt , like paying up(Williams), getting replaced (Enstone), stuck in a zero hope team (BAR/Honda), getting sacked (Brawn)and orchestrating McLarens record low point Lets see what Mclaren say in the near future
|
|
|
Post by racechick on May 27, 2016 19:03:42 GMT
dogued, if your answers are positive to the above questions I posed, then count me in on both the two responses above. Also, I'll never forgive him for trying to stitch up Lewis.
|
|
|
Post by dogued on May 28, 2016 0:27:36 GMT
Last fan survey had Button in the top 4 popular drivers. He is very presentable at events where he is personable and cheerful. Sponsors like the fact he doesn't make waves and can be marketed. Is is a WDC, he is British, and he is the most experienced driver in F1. He may not have won a race in a long time, but these are all attractive qualities. Let's not forget how the other 3 "elder statesmen" in F1 are going: Kimi (last win Aus 2013, Podiums in 2 of last 3 years), Massa (hasn't won since 2008, but at least had podiums each of the last 4 years), and Alonso (Last podium China 2014, win Spain 2013) versus Button (Last Podium Aus 2014, win Brazil 2012). racechick Insult Button and I'll cry into my oversized hanky! Go nuts! CookinFlat6Mercedes, Torro Rosso, Ferrari I agree with 100%. Manor & Sauber I'd never say never, if he's desperate enough to have a seat in F1, he may well be able to "buy" his way in for a swan song season. Highly unlikely though, the closest we've seen of that kind of move was a desperate reigning WDC winding up at Jordan. Haas might have no choice with Romain, he's got a couple of teams very interested (including his old firm), but I think if they were to lose him, it'd be with a Ferrari academy driver or hot shot US rookie. Renault want a seasoned driver, Magnussen isn't their first choice and that's why he only got a 1 year contract as a rush fill for Pastor. Button would tick boxes, however I think they'd prefer throwing the money at Romain to try and get him back. Force India and a Honda/Button deal could work, with Honda covering some of the wage bill. Honda do love Button, he's the one NOT bitching about the engine every race for the past 2 years, they've worked with him for a long time and he has potential to help a team transition with a new engine supplier. Force India NEED a big name who still has fan appeal and is liked by sponsors. It's not the longest shot in the world. Williams... ahhh Williams. Sir Frank and Claire both like Button, regardless of previous relationship. He was courted for 2016 as a replacement for Bottas who was speculated to be looking at Ferrari, in fact Valtteri's contract wasn't signed until after Button had renewed at McLaren. He would fit as a short 1 year replacement for Massa who just hasn't worked out. The shareholders would like him, the sponsors like him, and more importantly the "family" like him. This is the most likely place should he look for a 1 year home.
|
|
|
Post by Wß on May 28, 2016 1:38:18 GMT
Button did say he was the quintessential F1 marketing guy. If he moves to another team, they'll sell a few thousand overpriced baseball caps for sure.
|
|
|
Post by Wß on May 28, 2016 1:49:10 GMT
Last fan survey had Button in the top 4 popular drivers. He is very presentable at events where he is personable and cheerful. Sponsors like the fact he doesn't make waves and can be marketed. Is is a WDC, he is British, and he is the most experienced driver in F1. He may not have won a race in a long time, but these are all attractive qualities. All irrefutable facts dogued perhaps that's why the British media give him a a free pass? But when you compare him to the other British Champion on the grid, Lewis has been ranked at one of the most marketable sports figures in the world. He is very presentable at events where he is personable and cheerful. Sponsors like the fact he does make waves has an outside the box image and can be marketed to the masses outside F1dom, is a the winningest WDC, he is British, and he hist name pops up in the record books right next to the all times greats. He may not have these are all attractive qualities yet fans that dislike him are among the loudest on the internet. Something does not compute and I've always wondered why.
|
|
|
Post by dogued on May 28, 2016 2:06:46 GMT
Yes, he still has sale power. Let's be real for a moment, while it's true that under the right circumstances "any dog can have his day" and win a race, reality is that there are only 9 race winners currently in F1, the other 12 are just seat fillers. Sponsors want a marketable proven race winner to associate with their brand and to show off at events. If Button went to somewhere like Sauber for example, it would draw new money to the team because they would be seen as someone looking to improve with a known winner rather than the team they currently look like: have seat, will sell for $$, no experience required.
He results the last 2 years aren't great, but it's "accepted" this is due to car not driver and when he does score points it's because he did a good job. He's also the smiley happy "we'll get there chaps!" driver when up alongside that cranky old Spanish guy who likes having accidents over the last 2 years and moans about the team engine supplier.
|
|
|
Post by dogued on May 28, 2016 2:17:40 GMT
Wß 100% it's why Button gets a "free pass" in the Media. Compared to Lewis, in every way, Button is an "also ran." However, Button doesn't divide opinion as bitterly or as vocally as Lewis. Is it race? Is it background? Is it jealousy? Is it his path to the top? Whatever the case may be, Lewis splits F1 opinion among fans, media, and "paddock handbags" like Sir Jackie so divisively that it actually gets his name outside of F1 circles where they have no opinion on him as a driver just "Hey, that's that famous F1 guy! He must be a legend!", which sponsors love.
|
|
|
Post by racechick on May 28, 2016 8:50:17 GMT
Jenson is popular, but I don't understand why. To me he's smarmy and backstabbing. And there's another reason why the likes of of Stewart and some of the British press don't like Lewis. That boy , he don't know his place! I guess my feelings about the two ( and the way people treat them) are summed up in the poems I wrote about them some time ago. They're both in the poetry thread f1forum.org/thread/81/f1-poetry?page=1Ode to a racing driver on page2- Jenson Do not put me in a box on page5 - Lewis Got to dash now.
|
|
|
Post by Wß on May 28, 2016 16:34:25 GMT
Wß 100% it's why Button gets a "free pass" in the Media. Compared to Lewis, in every way, Button is an "also ran." However, Button doesn't divide opinion as bitterly or as vocally as Lewis. Is it race? Is it background? Is it jealousy? Is it his path to the top? Whatever the case may be, Lewis splits F1 opinion among fans, media, and "paddock handbags" like Sir Jackie so divisively that it actually gets his name outside of F1 circles where they have no opinion on him as a driver just "Hey, that's that famous F1 guy! He must be a legend!", which sponsors love. I think black people coming into a sport where there's been no other black person before are judged to a different standard. Jackie Robinson when he broke into the Major Leagues not only had to be good, he had to be stellar, and he could not in any way fight back against the myriad of hurdles placed in his way, fans yelling racists comments about his wife from the stands etc. Likewise with Lewis, despite his accomplishments a lot of people (including some in the media) do not approve of what they deem to be his "lifestyle" the "thug" friends he keeps the parties the rapping the clubbing and so on down the list. He is not playing the part they want him to play and despite their grievances still he rises. So it's not racism per se it's a cultural-ism and the disdain therein. So the problem with Hamilton is that he simply doesn't behave like their expectation hence the microscope of scrutiny. Kimi fucking falls off his boat piss assed drunk but he's the most lovable guy in the sport. Jenson comes up with a half-assed concocted plan to steal back his wife's multi million dollar wedding ring before he dumps her a few months later and no one bats an eyelash. I see it over and over again with people over the years since he came onto the sport, they hate him because it's him and not what they would tolerate. I've said it multiple times, I keep my judgement of people from what I see on the track, their life is theirs. I enjoy the weekends loads more that way.
|
|
|
Post by dogued on May 28, 2016 22:12:48 GMT
Likewise with Lewis, despite his accomplishments a lot of people (including some in the media) do not approve of what they deem to be his "lifestyle" the "thug" friends he keeps the parties the rapping the clubbing and so on down the list. He is not playing the part they want him to play and despite their grievances still he rises. So it's not racism per se it's a cultural-ism and the disdain therein. Funny thing is, this party lifestyle and off track activity is NOT NEW in F1! What was celebrated in Hunt is ridiculed in Hamilton. Even Button started his F1 career in party mode, he just changed when he found himself at BAR and didn't have the automatic "credit" a top field team gains you. But for Lewis, he hasn't had a season without a win since he started F1 (although this one isn't going so well). He may have downs, but he bounces right back and continues the party. As far as I can see, if it's working for him, if it's an outlet for the the stresses of driving, let the man enjoy it!
|
|
|
Post by CookinFlat6 on May 28, 2016 22:47:47 GMT
The bottom line is hard currency - No mater what happens now Lewis is still the top dog in F1 - he has the highest wage, the best car and 3 WDCs. This premier 'real politick' position is the real prize no matter what critics say about whatever - he has the only currency that matters - It would be worse if he was not in the 'fuck y'all' position - say at McLaren with everyone saying what a shame, what wasted talent.
Lewis has used and exploited F1 comprehensively for his own benefit, whereas Button has always threaded water
Hunt for example, was more like Button - hyped and dressed up on the back of fairly slim credentials - he barely won his only WDC against Lauda who was in hospital most of the year. He never really profited in real hard currency terms - ending up commentating at BBC (who can imagine Lewis needing the BBC?)
Whereas Lewis has fairly ripped the arse out of it financially and self advancement-wise, no matter what the Twattie Stewarts, McEnveys, McNishes, Watsons and all the other forum haterz and F1 expertz say. I am sure Button, Hunt, Stewart would happily have the material benefits over the 'benefit of doubt' opinions. Stewart for example is on record as moaning about how little money he got for being a 'legendz' compared with the modern generation.
Which retired F1 driver will have Lewis' earning power Seb? Kimi? Buttcheek? Alonso? - the clue is which F1 person currently has a larger media footprint? Indeed Lewis is bigger than all except the top teams in this respect.
I doubt that in 10 years to come Button, Seb, Alonso or Kimi will be saying 'Lewis ripped out 10x what I did out of F1 but at least I had more leeway and support with the press'
|
|
|
Post by racechick on May 28, 2016 22:55:13 GMT
Bang on dogued! Irritating thing is that in Hunt and more recently Kimi, an 'alternative' approach is celebrated, whilst in Hamilton it is ridiculed or is put down in some way. And the disturbing question is why? But back to Button ( since this is his thread) he has been the playboy, the cad, the sneak, the under performer yet he remains the darling of the media, praised and protected. Can you just imagine the field day the British media would be having if Hamilton dumped a pregnant girlfriend, offloaded a year old wife, performed badly on track, sucked up to or dumped on bosses? etc etc. Racing drivers should be judged on their on track performances only. So why is Button given a free ride? And Hamilton battered?
|
|
|
Post by Wß on May 28, 2016 22:57:40 GMT
Well, the thing I've learned about Button is that he's likely going to get another one year extension at McLaren, he fits right in and they sell a lot of his number 22 stuff, they need all the revenue they can get a hold of at the moment.
|
|
|
Post by racechick on May 28, 2016 23:00:24 GMT
Are you serious WB? They're considering him over Vandorne?
|
|
|
Post by CookinFlat6 on May 28, 2016 23:12:10 GMT
From what Ron said to the BC, he finally has a reason to dump Button. Lets not forget that Ron and Eric both wanted Button out with the Shitemarsh garbage only to get over ruled by disturbed shareholders
With SVD on contract and Buttwipe out of contract, Ron now has the ammunition he has to complete the purging of the remnants of the 'Ronless' McLaren period that produced their worst ever results and wasted all their major sponsors
|
|
|
Post by dogued on May 29, 2016 2:40:28 GMT
I think Button only gets as much press love as he does because he's always hit the right (excuse the pun) "buttons" each time. He was an English rookie as Hill and Herbert left F1, so UK press migrated to support him. He was the playboy cad when the only other UK drivers were that dour Scot and annoying Irishman. He was the underdog workhorse achieving podiums while the German and his red team ran riot over the field. He was the lauded journeyman when everything finally clicked at Brawn. He was the stoic sensible one when a part of "team UK". And now, he's the Elder Statesman overseeing the rebirth of McLaren Honda. He's played his parts over his career and been allowed the occasional fumble along the way. As I said early on, Button is marketable. Not in the same way the Lewis is to new and exciting markets, but to the old money and sponsors.
I think it will be enough to keep a seat in 2017 if he wants it, just maybe not at McLaren.
|
|
|
Post by CookinFlat6 on May 29, 2016 17:19:10 GMT
What a star!
So it is now the teams fault for not predicting that other teams would take the same gamble?
Yet it was his call, and Alonso didnt make the same call, but apart from that his car was just bad despite his teammate finishing 2 spots of the podium
|
|