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BREXIT
Jun 10, 2016 7:21:52 GMT
Post by racechick on Jun 10, 2016 7:21:52 GMT
Last night I watched the ITV debate, the analysis of it, newsnight and question time. Lol I overdosed. The other night I watched the one with Cameron and Farage.
Cameron has lied about tax ( of big corporations) . And he's ramping up the scaremongering about leaving, all the remainers seem to. We won't be safe, we won't have jobs, we won't be able to trade. Why? To all those. EUrope is failing, it has mass youth unemployment, the euros in a mess ( and guess who will have to pay when the bale out comes) , the economy is the worst performing except antarchitic. And Britain, who's economy isn't failing, is tied to that. And we can't make our own trade deals, with our commonwealth countries, with China, with the USA etc, etc. In the short term there will probably be some upheaval, but I can only see win in the longterm. Coming out of the EU doesn't mean you can't co operate with them, and trade with them. I'm pro Europe, but not pro the undemocratically, wasteful , beurocratic EU.
On a completely selfish personal view I should probably vote remain. I have a house in France. But for the future of this country it has to be out. They can't reform and they're broken.
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BREXIT
Jun 10, 2016 7:26:41 GMT
Post by LRW on Jun 10, 2016 7:26:41 GMT
The one thing that doesn't sit with me, from the remain camp, is when they keep saying "the EU is not prefect - but lets fight from within to change it".
Erm yeah - and how has that worked for you so far David?
And then when he said the other day that anyone that votes to leave is a quitter - that really pushed my buttons! Yeah, lets insult the voters that dont agree with us.
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BREXIT
Jun 10, 2016 7:42:33 GMT
Post by racechick on Jun 10, 2016 7:42:33 GMT
I think he's running scared because it's a lot closer than he expected. And his mates in the big corporations and the banks want in.
You're dead right, we can't change the way it's run, It's all set in stone( a constitution) from Maastricht and can't be changed .
And it takes forever to get all the countries to decide on any initiative so they can't react to sudden events.( like the China steel thing)
And when it comes to matters of the euro ( as in bailing it out, or bailing out failing euro countries) there are I think two countries in the EU but not the euro. So their voice is never going to influence anything. We are always outvoted. Cameron got diddlysqaut when he went to try to get reform, and that was with the U.K. facing a leave referendum, his best bargaining position ever! And he failed. What does he hope to achieve if we vote to remain?
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ichabod
Full Member
Posts: 183
Likes: 147
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Post by ichabod on Jun 10, 2016 17:46:19 GMT
After some consideration I have fallen off the fence onto the side of Brexit ( although I would say that my feet were always dangling on that side )
Reason 1. Before the general election David Cameron said:
“And to the British people I say this, If you elect me as Prime Minister in May, I will negotiate to reform the European Union, and Britain’s relationship with it. This issue of free movement will be a key part of that negotiation.
“If I succeed, I will, as I have said, campaign to keep this country in a reformed EU. If our concerns fall on deaf ears and we cannot put our relationship with the EU on a better footing, then of course I rule nothing out.”
Now I believe that David Cameron's renegotiations failed (He doesn't actually have a deal at all, the 28 members of the European council still have to vote on it, and we've never won a vote yet) but now he says leaving the EU is akin to armageddon.
2. George Osborne says we will be worse off leaving the EU Well George you have been wrong with every Budget projection since 2010 I'm not going to start believing that you suddenly know whats going to happen in the next 4 years.
3. Workers rights Remaniacs keep saying that if we leave the EU, the UK Will some how have worse rights and working conditions. The UK was one of the architects off getting better working conditions across Europe, Am I to suddenly believe that the UK will start sending children to work in the textile factories or down the pit ? (I dare some body to tell the French that their workers rights are being protected at the moment)
4. I grew up in York, when I was growing up we had a carriage works, A shock absorber manufacturing plant, and 3 chocolate factories Rowntrees, Terrys & Cravens amongst many other engineering manufacturing facilities that depended on them, employing tens of thousands of people earning good wages. Now all have gone, 3 chocolate factories, The carriage works and monroe shockers have all moved to the European mainland for cheep labour, and the all received millions in subsidies from the EU to do so. We have nothing left but retail and minimum wage tourist jobs (mostly taken by eastern europeans) If you look around York has been destroyed better by the EU than the luftwaffe (and they had a pretty good go)
for these reasons and many more I will be voting for Brexit
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BREXIT
Jun 20, 2016 12:58:06 GMT
Post by Wß on Jun 20, 2016 12:58:06 GMT
Pretty interesting read on Vice about the whole Brexit thing, I have to say reading this is the most thought I've given the topic. I think with the elections stateside you couldn't find one in ten 'Mericans that even had a clue about what it all means.
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BREXIT
Jun 20, 2016 18:18:57 GMT
Post by racechick on Jun 20, 2016 18:18:57 GMT
A very simplistic and very one sided article. Does not address people's real concerns and ridicules the British who want to leave by putting forward forward trivial arguements.
The British who want to leave the EU are not anti European, they are anti EU. They are anti an undemocratic wasteful beurocracy run by Germany to Germany's advantage. And they are against having national issues dictated to by Brussels.
Who says Britain us going to look like some of this pictures in the article? No one knows. But we do know where it's goinng if we stay in . So we'll take a chance in getting out. And yes probably some of the other countries will leave too when they realise civilisation doesn't end with Exit. It's breaking up anyway and the euro is a mess.
And I'm getting tired of hearing all the lies and distorting of figures and fake arguements and demonising of people who wish to leave. Cameron has lied throughout.
Obama wants Brtain to stay in, presumably because it suits the USA . But would he give up USA sovereignty ? Not on your life.
Sorry. Ranting. Turning into a little political activist.
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BREXIT
Jun 20, 2016 18:27:03 GMT
Post by Wß on Jun 20, 2016 18:27:03 GMT
80% of my eggs are in a stable fund at the moment awaiting the whole Brexit and elections issues to simmer down and come to whatsoever resolution they come to. Really the only news we get stateside is of how this has the potential to affect the economy (mostly because of the unknowns). Being politically active is never a bad thing RC, no need to apologize.
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BREXIT
Jun 20, 2016 20:13:30 GMT
Post by racechick on Jun 20, 2016 20:13:30 GMT
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BREXIT
Jun 22, 2016 16:06:00 GMT
Post by Wß on Jun 22, 2016 16:06:00 GMT
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BREXIT
Jun 22, 2016 17:03:19 GMT
Post by Hammer on Jun 22, 2016 17:03:19 GMT
I hope it happens. But for my own selfish reasons.
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BREXIT
Jun 22, 2016 18:03:46 GMT
Post by racechick on Jun 22, 2016 18:03:46 GMT
I can't watch that it won't work.
Last day today before Britain decide their future. Do we stay tied to an undemocratic unelected and failing federalist Europe? Or do we get out, and do things that are good for our country and not Germany? I've been busy on Twitter today. I have nearly 800 followers ( mostly Motorsport related, some political links, some friends, some wine merchants, some animal welfare groups, some cute animal people, some holiday photo people, some ski people, some randoms) If I can persuade one of those people who are undecided to vote leave, I'll be happy.
Sick of biased BBC reporting, it's atrocious today! Sick of slick politicians telling lies about this to keep the big corporations and the banks happy. Sick of being dictated to by Brussels. Sick of hearing people who want to leave being called racists Sick of Britain's small businesses being stifled by Brussels beurocracy
Too many self interested people!
It won't be easy coming out of the EU, but rarely are good things easy. Also, we don't come out immediately, we come out when we say so, I think we have up to two years. Two yeas to put things in place. Its the chance of a lifetime for Britain, and for our future generations. We need to grab this chance.
Stand by for some last minute campaigning!!
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BREXIT
Jun 22, 2016 18:28:47 GMT
Post by Wß on Jun 22, 2016 18:28:47 GMT
Not to ruffle feathers RC but it seems to me that there's a lot of issues and not fully thought through consequences and misinformation as to what the actual impacts will be. The global consensus is that there would be at best a neutral effect for the UK but more than likely negative overall consequences with the added insult that it would be more of a symbolic exit than a real one as any new trade agreements made with the UE would likely follow along the lines of existing EU rules. I will add that I respect the choice of the people once made but you couldn't have gone through the process worse if yo were Americans. Is there any answer as to when we'll have a result and how/when it will be implemented?
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BREXIT
Jun 22, 2016 18:52:55 GMT
Post by racechick on Jun 22, 2016 18:52:55 GMT
We'll have a result about 6 o ' clock uk time on Friday morning. You are right WB, there's a massive amount of misinformation out there! There's also a lot of self interest. I'd accept a neutral impact on exit in a heartbeat! I'm expecting a negative one initially. And if new trade agreements with the EU mirror the current ones that's another bonus. Because as well as that, we'd be Free to make trade agreements with the rest of the world, something we arent allowed to do now because the EU say so.
But it absolutely won't be symbolic. When the EU was set up, what we signed up to, was an alliance for trade. And that was fine. What it's become now is signing over our sovereignty to Brussels. They dictate all sorts of things. They override our judiciary system. They tell us what we can and can't do in our welfare system. They stagnate our small businesses. They prevent us deporting criminals to their home country . Etc etc.
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BREXIT
Jun 22, 2016 19:02:42 GMT
Post by Wß on Jun 22, 2016 19:02:42 GMT
The point of individual contracts is a valid point I'd guess, I'll add that one to the running tally. Such excitement! Finally we're talking about something other than Trump over here.
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BREXIT
Jun 23, 2016 8:48:11 GMT
Post by LRW on Jun 23, 2016 8:48:11 GMT
In.
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BREXIT
Jun 23, 2016 9:37:00 GMT
Post by racechick on Jun 23, 2016 9:37:00 GMT
Oh your kiddn me WHY WHY WHY? This is the problem, conservative ( small c) Britain are going to throw away the chance of a lifetime. I heard that people will have to be 60% certain they want to leave to not bottle it in the voting both. Well if 'remain' win, we might as well not ever bother voting again because the Brussels leaders are chosen for us , we don't get to vote for them. It isn't a democracy. You hear that, suffragettes who fought for our voting rights? People who fought wars for our freedom? We may just be about to piss it all away. ( that wasn't at you LRW, that's just my general mood today)
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BREXIT
Jun 23, 2016 11:10:04 GMT
Post by LRW on Jun 23, 2016 11:10:04 GMT
RC - I wont get into a battle of words with you about why you are voting your way and why I am voting my way because we have both made our minds up - BUT - if you want to know, here are my opinions: 1 - Regarding the EU not being a democracy. Have you heard of the House of Lords? I found this article interesting. 2 - The Economy could very well go down the pan if we leave, and my job could very well be gone- it is already suffering because of the referendum. Too many big business have given an opinion that they would look to invest less in the UK if we leave. 3 - The NHS / housing / schools are not under pressure due to immigrants - thats due to many other things including poor investment / ever increasing population in age as well as size (and immigration is a small % of our increasing population). 4 - Immigration. Immigration is very much a 50/50 split between EU and non-EU at the moment. We have full control over non-EU immigration - and the government isn't doing anything about it - so why would you believe they will do anything about Europeans if we leave? 5 - Immigration pt II - If we want to continue trading with the EU (which we will), we would likely remain part of the EEA - which means we would still need to produce goods and services that maintain EU standards, but have no influence over what those standards are. and we would need to agree to the free movement of goods, services, people and capital. - so there goes the immigration reason for leaving. 6 - You think that we have the ability to strike better trade deals with the rest of the world, than we currently do as part of the EU? I do not. There seems to be a big wave of people trying to blame the EU for a hell of a lot - when in reality we need to be looking at our own government for a lot of our countries failings. What really has annoyed me in this referendum is people trying to convince me how to vote - which is good and healthy - but then branding me an idiot if I dont vote in agreement with them. This is not fine - especially claiming people died for my rights to vote AND my freedom BUT in the same breath telling me I am wasting my vote because I dont agree with them and am using my right to vote and my freedom to vote in the way I see fit. However for the record, I think as a whole the UK will vote to leave. The down trodden masses will believe in what Britain First and The Sun newspaper have told them.
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BREXIT
Jun 23, 2016 11:46:08 GMT
Post by racechick on Jun 23, 2016 11:46:08 GMT
Fair enough. I don't agree with your points but you've considered the question thoroughly and made you're mind up. And that's good.
I don't think leave will win, for the reason I gave before conservative Brits ( with a small c)
As for the downtrodden masses, they're having the other side put to them by the mirror....they want remain.
Point 1 . If we wanted to vite in a government who would abolish the house of lords we could. We couldn't change the EU. Point 2 . No evidence the economy will go down the drain,we're a lot healthier than the EU economy. Germany have already said their would be no point putting up trade barriers if we leave. ( they'd loose out too) and we'd be free to trade with the rest of the world...globally . Point3 . I can absolutely assure you that schools are under pressure in some areas due to immigration because I've worked in them. And I've taught in classes where only a few children can speak English . That's a drain on resources. But I don't think that's the point, the point is if we were out we could have some sort of control and regulation and management in place. We could take manageable numbers and people with the resources Britain requires. Point 4. Good point. Immigration has been handled very badly by successive governments. Point 6. Definitely!! We aren't allowed to strike deals with the rest of the world without going through the EU. And doing anything through the EU takes too long. And we will always be outvoted if voting regarding currency takes place because only two countries out of all of them don't use the Euro.
Anyway, it's all over bar the shouting now. I think it will be a massive missed opportunity.
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BREXIT
Jun 23, 2016 11:52:19 GMT
Post by Wß on Jun 23, 2016 11:52:19 GMT
what's been really interesting is the polling, 44/45 where are the other 10%? are there people that have still not made up their mind?
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BREXIT
Jun 23, 2016 11:58:18 GMT
Post by LRW on Jun 23, 2016 11:58:18 GMT
Either a) deciding as they stand in the voting booth b) watching the football.
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