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Post by racechick on Mar 29, 2015 9:54:09 GMT
I honestly think they expected to have it in the bag, for all Toto came on and said they knew in quali that the Ferraris had the pace. I'm not sure who they have at merc who can call a strategy. Toto us a business and PR man, and Paddy doesn't inspire ME with confidence on the pitwall. Again, they miss Ross Brawn. It's fine when they have a two second gap, but when the fighting gets close they need someone in authority who can be decisive and call the shots. You wouldn't have had Lewis coming on the radio saying, " I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm on the wrong tyres. Are you now saying I have to do another stop? " That just wouldn't have happenned. I'm not saying ROSS would have got it right everytime but he would been decisive and inspire confidence. The drivers would have known exactly what was required of them and most times he would get it right.
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Post by CookinFlat6 on Mar 29, 2015 10:00:23 GMT
This is killing F1, the season is over, its gonna be so boring to watch, Ferrari need to be held back, its not fair, they aded 100 million to their budget over the winter, this is stifling competition, its a disgrace, even the finger is back. Ferrari must give Merc and the others 40 million each to make it fair
boo hoo! my iphone battery ran out on the penultimate lap and I lost my live timings, life is not fair
WE NEED TO BOYCOTT F1!!!!!
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ang44
Full Member
Posts: 355
Likes: 175
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Post by ang44 on Mar 29, 2015 10:10:13 GMT
I don't know if I've got this wrong...about what Nico has just said in Post race interview... He just said after the last pit stop....lewis was on a different tyre...& was gone up the road & he couldn't catch him... doh...Lewis was on the hard tyre... Merc really look shabby today.. Lewis thinks the race was lost at the first stop...& I AGREE
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Post by CookinFlat6 on Mar 29, 2015 10:11:30 GMT
Great race! lots of thinking, data, good driving, battles, emotions.
Like the BBc said this was a very convenient time for Merc to lose to Ferrari, who did not take RBRs sid in bitching for equalisation etc. Seemed Merc could have been missing a power setting, also its the first time I have seen the Mercs in 8th gear even away from the 2 straights. And Ferrari top speed higher.
Apart from any speculation the facts I saw are that Merc messed up a little through the weekend, not much but a bit hesitant and cautious - as if this was to be a somewhat 'different' race from normal. Merc could have just been a little complacent as evidenced by Nicos antics in quali which indirectly had a bearing on the race result, if they had started 1 and 2 .....
Also the stuff with Paddy on the radio, confusion on the pit wall, overheard by the drivers, wrong tyre choices more than once - a hint of the McLaren era where Paddy understudied the role of Team Boss
Mind you lets not forget we have had one or two of these races each season even when Ross was there
And for all the Ferrari supporters wetting themselves, now would be the time to remember that come China, a team that have suddenly gained peak power and engine driveability are likely to lose the advantages that comes from ignoring the fuel flow rate limit
Ricciardo suddenly doesnt look so good when his car isn't better than those he is fighting with, making mistakes and getting outclassed by the STR rookies and Kyviat - Kyviat who got shunted of at some point. Red Bull must really wish they had not make such a public spectacle as they suddenly look like any ordinary team with ordinary performance issues but with a big mouth and sense of entitlement but no fans
Alonso showed his class from the first lap, and has got more out the car than Button, who demonstrated he is unable to max a car - playing safe and cruise and collecting even when at the back - from the first lap Alonso was on his way with Button playing safe in his wake. Probably cheered up when Alonso DNFed feeling vindicated
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Post by pistnbroke on Mar 29, 2015 12:03:14 GMT
What an interesting race. I think Merc got caught out because they did not expect to be racing anyone other than themselves.
Seb drove an amazing race, maybe he does have some talent.
Apart from Merc splitting the Ferrari's it the final result was noah ark.
RBR can not blame it all on the engines as they where beaten by their pauper stable mates.
Mclaren well they are a bit faster. Jensons statement of "Oh we are catching some cars" made me chuckle.
Oh and Bravo Manor
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Post by RyRy on Mar 29, 2015 12:12:48 GMT
There's a few rumors going around that Merc were "forced" to mess up strategy to stop the complaining about "Merc Dominance" talk... I do hope that's not true but I wouldn't put it past anyone.
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Post by Wß on Mar 29, 2015 12:16:11 GMT
Red Bull clearly showed that their issues are not all engine related as they both finished in back of a very much ever increasing talented young duo of Sainz and Verstrappen.
Mercedes? What can I say, they really got outplayed today. Ferrari played to their strength which is clearly better tire management giving them the two stopper. Merc have gotten soft with strategy not having to worry about anyone for so long. Going out in Q1 with the medium tire didn't help, which then meant they had a further weakened tire strategy for Sunday.
The Ferrari's pace is good, but it's not what won them the race today, it was the ability to run one less pit stop coupled with the SC further extending the life of the medium another four or five laps. The race was lost there, and any chance of giving Hamilton a shot at victory was thrown away by not putting him on the medium at the end. Shabby, very shabby. But I'm excited that we've got a race and people can now STFU about stiffing competition.
Bring on China!
Oh yeah and Manor manages to do something not even McLaren could do today.... THEY FUCKING FINISHED THE RACE! BRAVO GUYS!
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Post by the2ndcoming on Mar 29, 2015 13:27:00 GMT
Red Bull clearly showed that their issues are not all engine related as they both finished in back of a very much ever increasing talented young duo of Sainz and Verstrappen. Mercedes? What can I say, they really got outplayed today. Ferrari played to their strength which is clearly better tire management giving them the two stopper. Merc have gotten soft with strategy not having to worry about anyone for so long. Going out in Q1 with the medium tire didn't help, which then meant they had a further weakened tire strategy for Sunday. The Ferrari's pace is good, but it's not what won them the race today, it was the ability to run one less pit stop coupled with the SC further extending the life of the medium another four or five laps. The race was lost there, and any chance of giving Hamilton a shot at victory was thrown away by not putting him on the medium at the end. Shabby, very shabby. But I'm excited that we've got a race and people can now STFU about stiffing competition. Bring on China! Oh yeah and Manor manages to do something not even McLaren could do today.... THEY FUCKING FINISHED THE RACE! BRAVO GUYS! WB, right on point. As much as I like seeing my guy take the checkered flag first, I appreciate the competition and feel like this loss was a needed wakeup call to Mercedes AMG. They've been in cruise mode for a year and may have become flaccid from lack of competition. Now they see it's time to tighten up. The strategists need to be on the their game at all times...clearly they were not on Saturday and Sunday. Also, these reliability niggles need to be put to rest. A couple slip-ups with resulting DNFs could easily give the WCC over to Ferrari. Ferrari's advantage is their reliability and ability to shift to various pre-planned strategies on a whim. Here's one of the problems: I, as do most, rate Lewis over Seb, Kimi and Nico in that order. If there are a lot of races where they finish like that, Ferrari could win the WCC. Mercedes have work to do. Good! On the driver's side, I still believe this is Lewis' drivers championship. 'Still I rise.' I'll always back the fight and talent in him over any obstacle.
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Post by Hammer on Mar 29, 2015 13:57:25 GMT
I don't think Merc will lose the WCC since Rosberg is a guy who brings the points home no matter what, while Kimi prefers screwing around in midfield and doing theatrics these days. The danger is losing the WDC since Vettel already has Ferrari firmly behind him (for sure) while Mercedes will not be so ready to make Lewis no.1 with Rosberg always there to whinge his displeasure at any moment.
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Post by CookinFlat6 on Mar 29, 2015 14:03:06 GMT
I would only be worried about Merc losing the WCC if Alonso were still at Ferrari. Lewis will win most of the races and Nico will bring home points for 2nd or 3rd - assuming Ferrari still look as good in China....
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Post by racechick on Mar 29, 2015 14:11:36 GMT
I don't think they will look so good in China . I think the heat has helped them and harmed Merc. That said they needed a wake up call.
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Post by Hammer on Mar 29, 2015 14:29:54 GMT
I daresay Merc have been running it easy to make sure their PU stays cool, but let's see how much they crank it up come China. I find it impossible that Ferrari could catch up by 2 whole seconds over winter, that would suggest Mercedes were on their ass the whole time doing absolutely nothing.
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Post by the2ndcoming on Mar 29, 2015 16:19:52 GMT
Given more Friday track time for Lewis, he should do the bit in China. He lost a lot of valuable running and setup in Malaysia so I don't feel too put out by him coming second. He loves and goes very well in China and he has a reputation for quickly bouncing back form-wise after a loss. Looking forward to it.
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Post by CookinFlat6 on Mar 29, 2015 17:09:23 GMT
Thing is Merc didnt have the pace they normally have. This can only be for 2 reasons - they turned down the power for cooling or political reasons, or the chassis somehow stopped working as well as it has done for over year in particular circumstances such as Pirellis new more durable tyres in hot conditions. I just dont buy the latter, leaving the former especially as the sudden relative higher deg could correlate to less available power to attain the same speeads. Then there is the matter of using 8th gear which could point to less power than normal at the top.
It is only fair to consider the possibility that the Shanghai directive or fuel rate monitoring HAS meant Merc were they exceeding the rate, have conformed a race early, but I dont buy that as it wouldnt make much sense that they were doing it last season before acquiring the ability to inject at 500 bar
So this leaves the strong possibility that Merc switched off access to a higher power setting for both drivers before quali.
On the other hand Ferraris power increase points to something more than mere development as they have used less tokens than Merc and so would have had to totally out developed their engine in comparison over the last few months. And the fact that they already had the 500 bar system points to circumventing the fuel flow rate for this relativily massive power gain.
We shall see what happens in Shanghai, but if Ferrari match Merc in pace there again I'll eat one of my Pirelli P zeros
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Post by racechick on Mar 29, 2015 17:50:58 GMT
Lewis said something about the heat not suiting their car so well. Couldn't it be that the new Pirelli's in hot conditions didn't suit the car? It was exceptionally hot. Could it have put the car back a bit like it was in 2013? In testing and Australia it was cooler. But that said I seem to remember last year, sometimes the Merc performed better on the harder tyre than the soft, opposite to what was normal and expected. Do you remember that? So it's very confusing.
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Post by CookinFlat6 on Mar 29, 2015 18:38:09 GMT
We do know what Allinson did with the Lotus chassis and how exceptionally good it was with tyres, so its likely that due to the heat the Mercs weakness on tyre usage on the new Pirellis has been somewhat exposed, where it wouldnt be if Ferrari hadnt been so strong. So it could be that the car was at its worst track for tyre usage due to the heat plus the extra abrasive surface. In that case well done to Ferrari who might have just had their best result on their best track for Allinsons chassis
The strategists were all over the place in general and had little answer, again fine if its just this extreme case. However all that stuff about telling Lewis he would catch Seb with 5 laps to go when even armchair spectators could see it was never gonna happen, for me points to something missing powerwise. Pointing back to a political reason to turn down the power and forget to remove the sandbags
No doubt the safety car messed things up, say Nico had had the balls to outbrake Seb an keep the second place at the start, could the 2 Mercs on a 2 stop have stayed in front an controlled the race till the first pit stop, where Seb would have run longer and possibly kept the lead depending on how far ahead the Mercs were. And even after that say Merc converted to a 3 stop thy would still be missing the options they wasted in Q2
I think it was a perfect storm of Merc errors plus Ferraris new chassis plus the power gain leading to the exact same result as if Merc had decided to limit their power to completely silence and moaners after the Aus race. Maybe Merc went ultra conservative with cooling and power and paid for it with deg and strategic floundering in the absence of their normal trump card power advantage
We will find out in Shanghai
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Post by racechick on Mar 29, 2015 18:56:10 GMT
We will. It certainly exposd their lack of leadership and decisive decision making in the heat of battle. Not a problem when they have a big advantage. And I do think they will regain some if that advantage , this was a rogue track for them. And possible political shenanigans as well. " we won't 'equalise' you, so long as the battle is closer " a bit of everything, and it wasn't their day.
But I know one thing, Mr likes- to-come- with- a -smile At Ferrari is a sharp one, and if Merc don't sort out their strategist and Ferrari continue to improve, they will give them a headache.
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Post by CookinFlat6 on Mar 29, 2015 19:45:35 GMT
No more than Ferrari or Mclaren gave Red Bull in 5 years. The Merc will remain the best car with the best driver and slightly suspect leadership. A manufacturer like Ferrari able to up its spend by 100 mill just to catch up must narrow the gap to the benchmark given the technical limits on the engines within the regs. But the same law of diminishing returns will apply for ferrari, and so their gain curve will be steep at first and then flatten for longer till they catch up. Put another way they screwed up so badly with the resources available at first that by spending huge money on staff and getting rid of the politics they are bound to make huge gains at first, getting on par will be a different matter.
And they may have a chassis thats really good with tyres like the Lotus was, or really good in very hot conditions but th overall package across all tracks and conditions they cant match Merc just by correcting their past idiocy, that will take stability and time.
So all the half wits who say anyone could win in the Merc and 'why not pay a cheaper driver' are finding out how F1 has always worked, something Merc know and something the half wits are too dumb to even realise they dont know
teams like Ferrari and Honda can spend the earth and poach staff but what Merc has is th best driver best car combo and thats alrady stable, cant buy that overnight as ferrari found out last time with MS etc
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Post by racechick on Mar 30, 2015 0:10:49 GMT
Yes, Merc hold all the cards bar a ROSS. That would have been full house. I don't think Ferrari are as close as they appeared today, but I do think that when Merc drop the ball Mr. Comewell will be there to pick it up.
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Post by RyRy on Mar 30, 2015 0:23:10 GMT
Damn, I just went through all the laptimes between Ferrari & Mercedes. Without the bad pit strategy would have finished anywhere from 11-14 seconds Vettel with Rosberg a further 4 seconds behind Vettel. (Times created with some machine learning code )
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